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戈尔巴乔夫20年后醒悟 西方在愚弄俄

31#
发表于 2009-9-10 10:05:13 | 只看该作者
nostalgia for the Soviet Union -- the word nostalgia is the feeling of missing something good about the old time. For example, when you pay a huge amount of money for the apartment unit today, you may miss the Mao era when the government gave you free apartment, free health care. But if you are really allowed to make a decision whether to restore communist Soviet Union or Mao's China, people will think carefully and say 'wait, that's not what I want, the situation today is not as good as I expected, but Soviet Union and Mao's time were even worse'. That explains why none of the former Russian and East European countries go back to communism even though some people there do complain about the current situation. As for China, it has already been embarked on a road of capitalist reform for 30 years, this is a road of no return, it's just a matter of time before it becomes a democracy, 'your resistence is futile'.

[QUOTE="哪吒"]


I give you one link.

When the Communists were in power, we had no way of knowing what ordinary Russians thought because all the media, without exception, were controlled by the Communist Party and expressed its interests. Since the dissolution of the Soviet Union, the situation in this respect has undergone drastic change. Russians have adopted with great enthusiasm western methods of public opinion polling and we now have reliable information about their thoughts and wants on almost every subject. The leading polling organization is the All-Russian Center for the Study of Public Opinion, directed by Iurii Levada. The results from this and other such institutes are regularly reported in their own publications as well as in the popular daily, IZVESTIA. The information provided below dates from 1999-2004.

Unfortunately, the results of these polls are not encouraging.They indicate a preference for order over freedom, suspicion of democracy and the free market, and nostalgia for the Soviet Union. Russians emerge as a people who mistrust everyone except their closest family and friends, as individuals who, in the words of one opinion survey, live in “trenches” feeling surrounded on all sides by enemies.
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32#
发表于 2009-9-10 10:20:46 | 只看该作者
I give you one link.

When the Communists were in power, we had no way of knowing what ordinary Russians thought because all the media, without exception, were controlled by the Communist Party and expressed its interests. Since the dissolution of the Soviet Union, the situation in this respect has undergone drastic change. Russians have adopted with great enthusiasm western methods of public opinion polling and we now have reliable information about their thoughts and wants on almost every subject. The leading polling organization is the All-Russian Center for the Study of Public Opinion, directed by Iurii Levada. The results from this and other such institutes are regularly reported in their own publications as well as in the popular daily, IZVESTIA. The information provided below dates from 1999-2004.

Unfortunately, the results of these polls are not encouraging.They indicate a preference for order over freedom, suspicion of democracy and the free market, and nostalgia for the Soviet Union. Russians emerge as a people who mistrust everyone except their closest family and friends, as individuals who, in the words of one opinion survey, live in “trenches” feeling surrounded on all sides by enemies.


发现你也就是个死脑筋。一个社会体制不是说变就变的,需要内、外多种因素同时作用才行。

你一直在这里嚷啷着,说没有民意调查结果可以显示“左左”的观点,我给了你,你应该满足了。我们只能就事论事,否则没有底。
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33#
发表于 2009-9-10 10:24:39 | 只看该作者
一个社会体制不是说变就变的,需要内、外多种因素同时作用才行 --- OK, we agree on this one, when the time is right, China will become a democracy, I'm patient.




发现你也就是个死脑筋。一个社会体制不是说变就变的,需要内、外多种因素同时作用才行。

你一直在这里嚷啷着,说没有民意调查结果可以显示“左左”的观点,我给了你,你应该满足了。我们只能就事论事,否则没有底。
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34#
发表于 2009-9-10 10:29:38 | 只看该作者
一个社会体制不是说变就变的,需要内、外多种因素同时作用才行 --- OK, we agree on this one, when the time is right, China will become a democracy, I'm patient.




That's right.
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35#
发表于 2009-9-10 11:12:13 | 只看该作者
发现你也就是个死脑筋。一个社会体制不是说变就变的,需要内、外多种因素同时作用才行。

你一直在这里嚷啷着,说没有民意调查结果可以显示“左左”的观点,我给了你,你应该满足了。我们只能就事论事,否则没有底。


俄罗斯现行体制给了俄国人自由选择的权利,如果他们喜欢一个党执政,继续选这一个党就可以了。他们喜欢普京,继续选普京或者和他持有同样执政理念的人就可以了,不再需要坦克和流血。无论如何,普京的党是俄罗斯统一党,不是俄共。汤换了,药也换了。
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36#
发表于 2009-9-10 11:24:00 | 只看该作者
这论坛上明白人这么多,谁能给我指点迷津?既然俄国和东欧人民怀念共产党政权,为什么不把他选回来执政?


既然80%的人都不喜欢苗大伟,他怎么能连任,还在台上,下次选举也不一定能被换掉?
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37#
发表于 2009-9-10 11:27:57 | 只看该作者
俄罗斯现行体制给了俄国人自由选择的权利,如果他们喜欢一个党执政,继续选这一个党就可以了。他们喜欢普京,继续选普京或者和他持有同样执政理念的人就可以了,不再需要坦克和流血。无论如何,普京的党是俄罗斯统一党,不是俄共。汤换了,药也换了。


党棍党棍,俄罗斯共产党换成俄罗斯统一党,那是“汤换了,药没换”。你的明白?
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38#
发表于 2009-9-10 11:43:10 | 只看该作者
背景资料:“统一俄罗斯”党

来源:新华网

    “统一俄罗斯”党是俄最大的两个政党之一。2001年12月1日, “统一”党(原译团结党)、“祖国”运动和“全俄罗斯”运动三大政治组织举行合并大会,成立全俄罗斯“统一和祖国”党,简称“统一俄罗斯”党。2002年11月,该党最高委员会选举俄内务部长格雷兹洛夫为
主席。

    “统一俄罗斯”党的主要目标是团结俄公民,实现社会的自由、法制、公正与和谐。该党现有50多万党员,在本届国家杜马中拥有82个席位。因支持普京总统和政府的方针政策,“统一俄罗斯”党被当地舆论称为政权党。

    “统一俄罗斯”党目前已成为俄罗斯第一大政治力量。在本届国家杜马内,“统一俄罗斯”党联合“人民议员”和“俄罗斯地区”等议员小组,成立协调委员会,拥有杜马240多个席位。这样就形成了支持总统的稳定多数,为普京顺利施政提供了重要保障。
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39#
发表于 2009-9-10 11:56:02 | 只看该作者

每年几百个退伍老兵

戴满了勋章,怀念过去,
等着环球时报每年定时采访,
然后在国内广为传播,
被国内网友驳得体无完肤,
居然还出口了,
你们去国内论坛讨论好不好,
水平真的太低了,
平时也不加强学习,
几个爱国华侨聊着能聊出什么东西来呢?
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40#
发表于 2009-9-10 12:04:11 | 只看该作者
“这个世界上除了共产党和皇帝以外,没有任何一个政党从理论上就规定自己要世世代代永远执政(永不变色)”
我想知道有没有人能证伪这个命题?
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41#
发表于 2009-9-10 12:04:50 | 只看该作者

回复:回复:普京:人民的信任才是最大财富

无论起名词是什么党,只要其统治方式跟以前无异。则也一样是专制。换个方式说,中共眼下的社会主义制度的发展方式,已在不断地与资本主义制度无甚大异议。
这就是人家跟你说的换汤不换药的说法。你得看全了人家的回应,再做反应为宜。
再加上你主题也说了“人民的信任才是最大财富”。你知道吗?在中国,国人目前最信任的政党还是中共呢!否则,咋会在这个论坛上都形成着比你这种人的绝大多数呀?


你是如何知道大多数拥护我党的,
猜得吧,
说个不好听就是臆想,
前苏联一夜之间拥护共产党的就从大多数变成微不足道,
没有公正的自由的调查,
根本无法证实任何所谓大多数的事情,
当然也不能说大多数反对共产党,
独裁体制下根本就不能拿出来比较的事情,
臆想都是多余的,你再强调都没用。
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42#
发表于 2009-9-10 12:10:04 | 只看该作者
俄国现在开放了党禁对不对?两大政党需要竞选对不对?中国人民要求的不比这多多少。
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43#
发表于 2009-9-10 12:11:48 | 只看该作者

回复:回复:每年几百个退伍老兵

猪都知道在这里是什么都可以说的,不会因为人家不喜欢听你的说话叫对方离开。只有那种内心十分霸道、可无知此地为何方、又不晓被何法律所辖的人,才最不适宜继续呆在这里。
自己也在这参与讨论,又有何资格指责人家“能聊出什么东西来” 呀。这就是香港人的霸道民主作风。


没叫你离开,
没叫你闭嘴,我也没这个权利,
这个论坛是谁的我还知道,
叫你加强学习,
去国内论坛先镀镀金,
免得总是重复中宣部的内容,
人家不反驳还以为自己了不起呢。
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44#
发表于 2009-9-10 12:28:26 | 只看该作者
俄罗斯现行体制给了俄国人自由选择的权利,如果他们喜欢一个党执政,继续选这一个党就可以了。他们喜欢普京,继续选普京或者和他持有同样执政理念的人就可以了,不再需要坦克和流血。无论如何,普京的党是俄罗斯统一党,不是俄共。汤换了,药也换了。


As what we know, Mr. Putin's Russia is not the Soviet Union. For most Russians, life is freer now than it was in the old days.

However, a new autocracy now governs Russia. Behind a facade of democracy lies a centralized authority that has deployed a nationwide cadre of loyalists that is not reluctant to swat down those who challenge the ruling party.

Please see the article below from NYTimes.

[U]Putin’s Iron Grip on Russia Suffocates Opponents [/U]

NIZHNY NOVGOROD, Russia — Shortly before parliamentary elections in December, foremen fanned out across the sprawling GAZ vehicle factory here, pulling aside assembly-line workers and giving them an order: vote for President Vladimir V. Putin’s party or else. They were instructed to phone in after they left their polling places. Names would be tallied, defiance punished.

The city’s children, too, were pressed into service. At schools, teachers gave them pamphlets promoting “Putin’s Plan” and told them to lobby their parents. Some were threatened with bad grades if they failed to attend “Children’s Referendums” at polling places, a ploy to ensure that their parents would show up and vote for the ruling party.

Around the same time, volunteers for an opposition party here, the Union of Right Forces, received hundreds of calls at all hours, warning them to stop working for their candidates. Otherwise, you will be hurt, the callers said, along with the rest of your family.

Over the past eight years, in the name of reviving Russia after the tumult of the 1990s, Mr. Putin has waged an unforgiving campaign to clamp down on democracy and extend control over the government and large swaths of the economy. He has suppressed the independent news media, nationalized important industries, smothered the political opposition and readily deployed the security services to carry out the Kremlin’s wishes.

While those tactics have been widely recognized, they have been especially heavy-handed at the local level, in far-flung places like Nizhny Novgorod, 250 miles east of Moscow. On the eve of a presidential election in Russia that was all but fixed in December, when Mr. Putin selected his close aide, Dmitri A. Medvedev, as his successor, Nizhny Novgorod stands as a stark example of how Mr. Putin and his followers have established what is essentially a one-party state.

Mr. Putin’s Russia is not the Soviet Union. For most Russians, life is freer now than it was in the old days. Criticism of the Kremlin is tolerated, as long as it is not done in any broadly organized way, and access to the Internet is unfettered. The economy, with its abundance of consumer goods and heady rate of growth, bears little resemblance to the one under Communism.

Still, as was made plain in dozens of interviews with political leaders, officials and residents of Nizhny Novgorod over several weeks, a new autocracy now governs Russia. Behind a facade of democracy lies a centralized authority that has deployed a nationwide cadre of loyalists that is not reluctant to swat down those who challenge the ruling party. Fearing such retribution, many of the people interviewed for this article asked not to be identified.

The government has closed newspapers in St. Petersburg and raided political party offices in Siberia. It was hardly unusual when in Samara, in the nation’s center, organized crime officers charged an opposition campaign official with financial crimes shortly before the December parliamentary elections and froze the party’s bank accounts.

Here in this historic region on the Volga River, Mr. Putin’s allies now control nearly all the offices, and elections have become a formality. And that is just as it should be, they said.

“In my opinion, at a certain stage, like now, it is not only useful, it is even necessary — we are tired of democratic twists and turns,” said the leader of Mr. Putin’s party in Nizhny Novgorod, Sergei G. Nekrasov. “It may sound sacrilegious, but I would propose to suspend all this election business for the time being, at least for managerial positions.”

Mr. Putin, who intends to remain in power by becoming prime minister under Mr. Medvedev, has in recent days declared that Russia has a healthy democracy, a renewed sense of national pride and a prominent role on the world stage. His supporters in Nizhny Novgorod point to his high approval ratings as evidence that his policies work.

A refrain often heard here and across Russia is that the distressing years right after Communism’s collapse left people craving stability and a sturdy economy far more than Western-style democracy. These days, they care little if elections are basically uncontested as long as a strong leader is in charge.

“There is some hope for us now,” said Nina Aksyonova, 68, a Nizhny Novgorod resident, explaining Mr. Putin’s popularity.

Propaganda Onslaught

Nizhny Novgorod, an industrial center with 1.3 million residents, was known as Gorky during the Communist era, when it was closed to foreigners and was home to the dissident physicist Andrei D. Sakharov, who was sent into internal exile here. After the Soviet Union’s collapse, it became a hotbed of liberalism, earning international recognition after officials sought to jettison the old sclerotic economic structure and embrace what were considered far-sighted political reforms.

Today, authority flows from the Kremlin to a regional governor appointed by Mr. Putin, who abolished the election of governors in Russia in 2004. The governor, Valery P. Shantsev, was brought in from Moscow and is charged with running the region and ensuring that Mr. Putin’s party, United Russia, wins elections. The lines between the government and party have become so blurred that on election day in December, regional election commission members wore large United Russia badges.

Boris Y. Nemtsov became a political star in Russia and the West as governor of Nizhny Novgorod and deputy prime minister in the 1990s, but in recent months he and his opposition party have taken a battering here. Regional and national television stations, controlled by the Kremlin and its surrogates, have repeatedly attacked him — calling him everything from a corrupt bureaucrat to a traitor.

“His career has been accompanied by scandals,” went a typical report on the popular Channel One right before the December elections. “It was the elderly who were the first to feel the results of the work of Nemtsov’s government on their purses. Pensions dropped to the lowest level in all Russia’s history. Boris Nemtsov used to gather the press just to say that he did not care who the pensioners, deprived of money, would vote for. According to the plans of young reformers, only the strongest were supposed to live until the next century.”

Meanwhile, a different kind of propaganda war was being waged on the streets. Russia has relatively conservative attitudes toward homosexuality, and all autumn long Nizhny Novgorod was blanketed with tens of thousands of leaflets saying that Mr. Nemtsov’s liberal, pro-Western opposition party, the Union of Right Forces, ardently favored gay rights and employed canvassers with AIDS. Neither was true.

The leaflets often included the name and phone number of a leader of the party’s regional candidate slate, Andrei Osipenko. Some had condoms attached and announced offers to send supporters to a gay-pride event in Amsterdam.

Intimidation and violence came next. Businesses cut off donations after receiving threats from government officials, said Sergei Veltishchev, an organizer for the Union of Right Forces. Someone obtained the confidential list of party members — the party officials say they suspect that it was the security services — and hundreds of menacing phone calls were made to volunteers, saying they or their families would be hurt if they helped the party.

The party was refused advertising space on everything from billboards to newspapers to television. When Mr. Nemtsov tried to campaign in Nizhny Novgorod in the fall, no one would rent him a hall. In November, the party headquarters were ransacked and spray-painted with profanities and graffiti that called it the “Party of Gays.”

A few weeks before the elections, Mr. Osipenko gave up, renouncing his party at a news conference that was heavily covered on state-controlled television and had the feel of the Stalinist-era public confessions that followed show trials. Other party officials did the same.

The party’s remaining candidates in the region were too fearful to campaign.

“You begin to think: you have a family, you have a business, and you may value this significantly more than a political career,” said Artur Nazarenko, an official with the Union of Right Forces. The party, once a regional power, received only 1 percent of the vote in the parliamentary elections, both in the Nizhny Novgorod region and nationally.

Other opposition figures in Nizhny Novgorod have been treated just as harshly over the past year. Leaders of a loose coalition called Other Russia have been repeatedly arrested, with some charged with inciting terrorism. When the group held a demonstration here last March, local television stations tried to scare away the public, labeling the event a gathering of either racist skinheads or gay rights advocates.

“Now about the so-called opposition, though there is a big doubt that it exists at all in the country,” an announcer asserted on the Seti NN channel. “They have been acting in violation of the law.”

The mayor of Nizhny Novgorod, Vadim Bulavinov, a United Russia leader, said the opposition had failed because it was poorly organized.

“If an organization is weak because people do not want to work for it or to help it, why should United Russia be blamed for that?” the mayor said. “I think that if the opposition parties want to find out who is guilty, they need to look in the mirror.”

Attacks on the Press

With the opposition suppressed in the months before the December elections, anti-Kremlin activism coalesced around independent newspapers and nonprofit groups, making them another target of the security forces.

In August, police officers broke down the door to the local offices of Novaya Gazeta, an opposition paper that had criticized Governor Shantsev and Mayor Bulavinov. Investigators accused the paper of using unlicensed software and hauled away its computers, shutting down the paper until after the elections.

Prosecutors also closed or prevented the distribution of two other regional newspapers, Leninskaya Smena and Trud, and conducted aggressive inquiries into the finances of several others. “It is a demonstration of force: ‘If you behave wrong, we will punish you,’ ” said Zakhar Prilepin, Novaya Gazeta’s editor in Nizhny Novgorod.

The regional prosecutor, Valery Maksimenko, did not respond to several requests for comment.

On the day of the Novaya Gazeta raid, the police removed computers from the offices of the Foundation to Support Tolerance, a nonprofit group that has been harassed for four years after criticizing the Kremlin and the war in Chechnya.

The authorities seem especially distrustful of the foundation because it receives money from the National Endowment for Democracy, an American nonprofit group financed by the United States government. The Kremlin has blamed Western pro-democracy groups for fomenting popular uprisings in Ukraine, Georgia and elsewhere in recent years, and vowed that that sort of thing would never happen in Russia.

The Federal Security Service, known by its initials in Russian, F.S.B., has interrogated the tolerance foundation’s workers, family members and friends. Its leaders, Stanislav Dmitriyevsky and Oksana Chelysheva, have received death threats. And as part of a smear campaign, the Volga regional television station showed Russian soldiers being beheaded in Chechnya and said the group had justified such killings.

In October, when the foundation held a memorial for Anna Politkovskaya, an opposition journalist killed in 2006, several foreign human rights advocates were arrested in Nizhny Novgorod. The police again raided the foundation’s offices, and the authorities froze its bank accounts, saying it supported terrorism.

“The ruling elite nowadays has no ideology,” Ms. Chelysheva said. “Their only aim is to obtain as much power as possible, to keep this power, by whatever means, and to profiteer off this power. In this respect, these people, who are so cynical, are much more dangerous than was the Communist Party of the U.S.S.R.”

The group had been called the Russian-Chechen Friendship Society, and it focused on exposing what it deemed human rights violations in the Russian war against separatists in Chechnya. But it ran afoul of the Kremlin, which deemed its work as little more than collaboration with the enemy.

Prosecutors accused the society of extremism and shut it down after it republished letters from two Chechen separatist leaders. Mr. Dmitriyevsky was convicted of inciting ethnic hatred and received a suspended prison sentence.

A Push for Legitimacy

While the Kremlin has succeeded in discrediting and stifling opposition parties, it has nonetheless faced a predicament of its own making. Elections draw little public interest now that they are essentially noncompetitive, and leaders of the governing party fear a low turnout. If relatively few people vote, then Mr. Putin’s claim to a widespread following could be called into question. So the authorities have also focused their energies on getting people to the polls.

Though Mayor Bulavinov and Mr. Nekrasov, the United Russia leader, said residents were not compelled to support the party, numerous interviews in the city and a review of municipal records indicated otherwise. It was clear that strong-arm tactics were common before the December elections in Nizhny Novgorod, and the opposition said it expected them again before the presidential election on March 2.

At the GAZ vehicle factory, known for its Volga sedan, workers were not only ordered to vote and then phone in from the polling place afterward: some had to obtain absentee ballots and fill them out in front of their bosses.

“If you don’t vote for United Russia, it will be very bad,” a worker named Aleksandr recalled, characterizing the pressure on the rank and file.

The coercive voter drive clearly had the desired effect, in the Kremlin’s view at least. After the election, the GAZ president, Nikolai Pugin, who is a senior United Russia leader and a regional lawmaker, announced that nearly 80 percent of his workers had voted, far higher than the city’s overall turnout, 51 percent. The Kremlin rewarded Mr. Pugin by making one of his workers a deputy in the federal Parliament.

Asked this month about the high turnout, Mr. Pugin said in an interview that his workers had voted freely. “People see positive changes and as a result, they express their opinion,” he said.

The public schools also were caught up in the campaign. Parents at some schools were ordered to attend mandatory meetings with representatives of United Russia, and the children were used to drag their parents to the polls.

“It was the same scenario at all the schools,” a teacher said. “And it was all from the city’s leadership. The school directors were given instructions, and they carried them out.”

Regional officials were vigilant about developments at local universities, particularly two of the largest, Lobachevsky State and Volga State. Students said they were warned not to join marches sponsored by the Other Russia coalition. And they said that before the elections, administrators issued a threat: if you do not vote for the ruling party, you will be evicted from your dorms.

“Everyone was frightened, and our group, in full, went and voted, like a line of soldiers marching,” said a Volga State student.

Administrators at both universities said the students’ statements about pressure were false.

Yet it did not stop with the voting.

Shortly after election day, several hundred Lobachevsky students were told that they were being bused to Moscow, but the university would not say why. When they were let off near Red Square, they found themselves among a huge throng of people.

It was only then that they realized that they had become unwilling participants in a rally sponsored by Nashi, a fiercely pro-Kremlin youth group, to celebrate United Russia’s triumph and to congratulate Mr. Putin.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/2 ... n.html?pagewanted=1
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45#
发表于 2009-9-10 12:34:03 | 只看该作者
要求自己的国家民主和宪政没有错,我支持。但得找到合适的方法去执行。谩骂和攻击解决不了任何问题。
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