三谈"李向东事件":平权会必须面对民众

canadafreeword

如果觉得不对, 可以象李先生一样站出来嘛........


最初由[Lat123]发布
木然、你错了

我认为你们及编辑部都是大做文章、不尊重加国法律、不尊重女性、不尊重法庭判决。可知家暴不只是身体暴力、它包心理、精神、和性虐待。李向东根本不是好人、有目共睹、他只利用你們拿回面子、而51.ca也是利用他来做文章、编辑更有扰乱加国公安伦理的行为。放下你粗暴、强奸妇女专严的所有动作吧！
李向东的说话全是他自己说、你胡亂地听、根本完全没有法律支持、要批就批中国贪汙的好了、加国是法治之地、你觉得有理由就去找律师吧、离婚吧。中国男人真要学尊重女性、男女平等、法治不是人治。大陆那一套在加国就是行不通、你有大陆纲男支持你也没用。不尊重法律、在法律面前都要滥骂不公平、你才是目中无法。不要以为这种滥用纲民的意识可以为你制造更多社会权力地位！我看到的是强词夺理、对公正的挑战、太低级了

canadafreeword

最初由[木然]发布
好像讨论在脱离话题。

没有人可以定李或吴谁对谁错，只有法官才能定，编辑部不能定，木然也不能定，平权会也不能定。

李有没有错？一定有，要不不会出现今天这样的结局。

问题是，平权会拍摄一个片子，采取真名真姓地演绎，拍摄前没有与李向东进行接触，了解，更没有取得李的同意，这合不合理？

现在我们假设，李向东确实是有暴力侵犯太太，我们搬这故事上荧幕，真名真姓，应不应该取得李家双方的同意呢？如果事情发生在你、我、他任何一个家庭，一个组织不经过你的同意，就将你的家事拍成电影、记录片去宣传，你会有什么感受？会接受这种事实吗？

一部用于宣传教育的片子，受到当事人投诉，这部片的原意还在吗？

Sedona

最初由[木然]发布
好像讨论在脱离话题。

没有人可以定李或吴谁对谁错，只有法官才能定，编辑部不能定，木然也不能定，平权会也不能定。

李有没有错？一定有，要不不会出现今天这样的结局。

问题是，平权会拍摄一个片子，采取真名真姓地演绎，拍摄前没有与李向东进行接触，了解，更没有取得李的同意，这合不合理？

现在我们假设，李向东确实是有暴力侵犯太太，我们搬这故事上荧幕，真名真姓，应不应该取得李家双方的同意呢？如果事情发生在你、我、他任何一个家庭，一个组织不经过你的同意，就将你的家事拍成电影、记录片去宣传，你会有什么感受？会接受这种事实吗？

一部用于宣传教育的片子，受到当事人投诉，这部片的原意还在吗？



Mr. Lee didn't say it.  Based on his own submission, I bet he must have a bargain with the Crown Attorney.  He agreed to a no contact order for an exchange from the Crown not to proceed to a trial.  If Mr. Lee believes he is innocent, he could have fought the case at court.

A court order is a court order.  Mr. Lee failed to observe the first no contact court order, resulting in his detention for 2 months.  That's his own submission.

Don't mislead the community that a man will be jailed because of verbal altercation.  Even Lai is walking freely on the street.

Law related to confidentiality:

In accordance with s181 of the Child and Family Services Act, a service provider may disclose the record of a person who is sixteen years of age or older with that person's written consent.

This part of the law has not been proclaimed, meaning the practice is based on precedence and thus is applicable to similar scenarios.

The service provider is 平权会 and the person is Amanda Wu. 平权会 needs consent from Ms. Wu, as long as they will not disclose identifying information of Mr. Lee.  That's it.  I doubt it if Mr. Lee's name is mentioned.  If so, congratulations to Mr. Lee that he can sue 平权会 for 50 millions.

It is not the first time in child welfare, for example, a live case with real names is used, without the consent from the parents.  These kids are older (over 16) who can give out consent.  What they say in the video may not be liked by their parents, but it is absolutely legal.

I agree 平权会 could have done better:

1. they can choose not to use real names;

2. they should have done a better job to locate Mr. Lee, as a courtesy, not a legal requirement.

3. the project manager (Lilida????) should have hold a more assertive role that the society in general has a zero tolerance toward violence against women.  She was not assertive enough, in my humble opinion.

受到当事人投诉?????  Who is the client?  Amanda is, not Tony.

如果事情发生在你、我、他任何一个家庭，?????? Oh boy.  Are you a professional?  In any intellectual debate, never ever use 你、我、他任何一个家庭.

Listen: zero tolerance toward child abuse, woman abuse and senior abuse.

费老

前 前 后 后共 10几 贴 ，  老 李 在 51讲 述 其 家 庭 纠 纷的  一 些 事 情 。 给 我 印 象 最 深 的 一 件 事 是 他 在 与 其 妻 争 吵 时 抄 起 菜 刀 ， 理 由 是 怕 女 方 拿 刀 对 他 行 凶 。 。 。
      那 么 俺 想 问 问 那 些 替 老 李 辩 护 的 人 ， 这 个 理 由 能 站 住 脚 吗 ？ 警 察， 法 官  能 相 信 这 个 理 由 吗 ？
      夫 妻 争 吵 时 ， 刀 都 敢 拿 ， 这 不 是 家 庭 暴 力 又 是 什 么 ？ 就 这 件 事 ， 老 李 上 宣 传 片 一 点 都 不 怨 ！

Marsher

清官难断家务事, 李向东 needs help, but not against 平权会. He needs 律师, if 平权会 is doing something illegally against him; or 心理辅导, if he feels too upset for his family's problem. I don't think 平权会 is doing wrong, including issuing the film, suggesting 李向东 for 律师 or 心理辅导, and more important, not involving too much in this 新闻chao作, which might create a Yang Li Juan tragedy in Canada.

台北夢

台北夢

Further reflection on what Mr. Mu Ran just commented:
I believe it is legal that Mr. Lee's real name is used in the film for the following reasons:
1.  The court has already passed a verdict on Mr. Lee,i.e. according to Canadian's law, he IS quilty of a crime. His criminal case, just like any other, is opened to the public and can be subject to public scrutiny. The media or anyone has the right to talk about it as a matter of facts.
2.  This is a film about how Amanda is being abused, not about how Mr. Lee's moans and groans and how he fights hard to continue to be a loser. Amanda's consent is obtained.

It is as simple as that. Unfortunately Mr. Lee makes his own image worse 。Mr. Mu Ran, the editor of 51.ca, and 现代日报 are showing off their ignorance and degrading their status in this community by taking a stand with Mr. Lee. Previously I was never interested in expressing myself much thro the web, but this time I seriously could not bear to see the pathetic baby cry of Mr. Lee to decide to speak up. Men, admit it, he is an abuser, and is one who is cunning and unrependent. If Mr. Lee doesnt shut up, I think he should go to jail because sly man like him will cause problems to this society. What sickens me is how he tries to beautify his own heart and actions. Really I am not here to speak up because I dislike him , he is not worth my attention. Nevertheless, I dislike people like him who tries to exploit naive  handsome man such as Mr. Mu Ran and the editor to fight for him and for a cause detrimental to the integrity of the people of Canada. Put it simply, if any man is abused , they have exactly the same legal right and responsibility to call the police. Too bad, Mr. Lee, if you did not do it earlier than Amanda.
And frankly, I am also disgusted that平权会和 Chinese Family Services  are so so weak on their stand, the way they tackle Mr. Lee and Mr. Mu Ran is blurry too, all in gray. This handling is very much the Chinese 'Way of the Middle'中庸之道'. In this issue concerned, the middle way philosophy is totally incompetent and unprofessional. According to the law, there is only black and white, never gray. I do believe, in this respect, 平枚会和 Chinese Family Services must take a stronger stand to protect our society.
Finally, I respect 'Sedona' and 'Daydreaming' and those who speak with conscience. Dont ever forget, we need to protect the less fortunate. Mr. Lee, be a man, 不要死鸡撑饭盖！Wasting our time and your own .

daydreaming

最初由[木然]发布
好像讨论在脱离话题。

没有人可以定李或吴谁对谁错，只有法官才能定，编辑部不能定，木然也不能定，平权会也不能定。

李有没有错？一定有，要不不会出现今天这样的结局。

问题是，平权会拍摄一个片子，采取真名真姓地演绎，拍摄前没有与李向东进行接触，了解，更没有取得李的同意，这合不合理？

现在我们假设，李向东确实是有暴力侵犯太太，我们搬这故事上荧幕，真名真姓，应不应该取得李家双方的同意呢？如果事情发生在你、我、他任何一个家庭，一个组织不经过你的同意，就将你的家事拍成电影、记录片去宣传，你会有什么感受？会接受这种率德穑?

一部用于宣传教育的片子，受到当事人投诉，这部片的原意还在吗？

From all your articles related to this incidence, you've already taken a standpoint, until the latest one, even more evident.

Some of the information given from your artilces are more likely to mislead the public about awareness of Domestic Violence, let alone how much children and women were affected in the Domestic Violence.

A message about Domestic Violence has to be conveyed clearly " Domestic Violence in any form is not justified in any language! " in terms of publicity.

Their child was mostly ignored person in the whole process. How much was she suffering from the conflicts she was put into choosing who to be loyal to or have affections for?

Did anybody think of helping her to cope with the conflicts and change in the family?

加国老三

都是什么人，如此大放厥词，你们有根据吗？你们的权利高于法官吗！

法官的宣判是：罪名不成立，无罪释放。你们看明白了吗！

大放厥词的人，你们把法院的判决书公布出来，也好成为你们的根据，不然，你有资格判定李  在此案中就有罪吗？
第一次虽然刀都在李 的手中，但是法官都能判死亡威胁罪名不能成立，你们又是什么东西，凌驾于法官之上吗！你们那一位参加了庭审，知道事情发生的经过吗，你们的理论根据又是什么，你有资格认定李 有罪吗，如果都没有，也只能编造什么猴子呀污七八糟的东西来凑热闹，岂不是可笑。
要想证明这一切就让那个amanda吴站出来，不要披甲上阵，剥去伪装，讲清事情的过程，谁是谁非，自有公论。

加国老三

最初由[hanren62]发布
老 李 已 经 输 了

前 前 后 后共 10几 贴 ，  老 李 在 51讲 述 其 家 庭 纠 纷的  一 些 事 情 。 给 我 印 象 最 深 的 一 件 事 是 他 在 与 其 妻 争 吵 时 抄 起 菜 刀 ， 理 由 是 怕 女 方 拿 刀 对 他 行 凶 。 。 。
      那 么 俺 想 问 问 那 些 替 老 李 辩 护 的 人 ， 这 个 理 由 能 站 住 脚 吗 ？ 警 察， 法 官  能 相 信 这 个 理 由 吗 ？
      夫 妻 争 吵 时 ， 刀 都 敢 拿 ， 这 不 是 家 庭 暴 力 又 是 什 么 ？ 就 这 件 事 ， 老 李 上 宣 传 片 一 点 都 不 怨 ！


你有没有脑子，法官如果象你一样笨，岂不早已宣判李 有罪，还用的着你来操心。
你看没看到老李讲述的在法庭上对于持刀问题的回答，你了解情况吗

加国老三

最初由[daydreaming]发布
you've already taken a standpoint



From all your articles related to this incidence, you've already taken a standpoint, until the latest one, even more evident.

Some of the information given from your artilces are more likely to mislead the public about awareness of Domestic Violence, let alone how much children and women were affected in the Domestic Violence.

A message about Domestic Violence has to be conveyed clearly " Domestic Violence in any form is not justified in any language! " in terms of publicity.

Their child was mostly ignored person in the whole process. How much was she suffering from the conflicts she was put into choosing who to be loyal to or have affections for?

Did anybody think of helping her to cope with the conflicts and change in the family?


  对于《破》片真相，我一直都在关注。
记得老李在讲述过程中有这样一段：“当我看到孩子受到委屈，为了不让我为难，她自己含着眼泪，不和我说，这比别人用刀子腕我的心还难受”

  “吴的脾气暴躁，对孩子经常打骂”

  看过平权会《破》片发布会的宣传报道中警官陈楚标说：在加拿大，不一定打到头破血流才是家暴，拍一下，打一巴掌都是殴打罪。
  听到欧慕启讲述虐带罪的表现时这么说：感情上的压抑，语言上的漫骂，都是虐带行为。
那么，认为木然，老李错的人，你们能举出老李有打孩子，骂
孩子的例子吗，听说老李与孩子感情最好，无话不谈，连老李的头发都是一个10岁到13岁的女儿给剪的，孩子的妈妈在家中又做了什么呢，能不能说出几件呢。
  从讲述中让大家来看究竟谁是家庭的施暴者

加国老三

首先你平权会凭什么认为Amanda就是家暴的受害者，前面讲的Amanda在家中的行为，已经是严重的施暴者了，你们有什么根据认定老李是施暴者，只有一个可能，是听了Amanda的一面之词，又把法院的限制令，作为对老李有罪的判决，有法律根据吗 ？

平权会对《破 》片及《冬》的宣传上都是这样说：“两位受害者勇敢的面对镜头，亲自讲述自己的遭遇，并把当时受虐的情景重演。   ”   
   又讲：“影片中2位分别来自大陆和香港的家暴受害妇女，亲自讲述她们的真实故事”
  请问何为真实，你们了解情况吗，这不是侵权又是什么

加国老三

最初由[Lat123]发布
现在我们假设，李向东确实是有暴力侵犯太太，我们搬这故事上荧幕，真名真姓，应不应该

Further reflection on what Mr. Mu Ran just commented:
I believe it is legal that Mr. Lee's real name is used in the film for the following reasons:
1.  The court has already passed a verdict on Mr. Lee,i.e. according to Canadian's law, he IS quilty of a crime. His criminal case, just like any other, is opened to the public and can be subject to public scrutiny. The media or anyone has the right to talk about it as a matter of facts.
2.  This is a film about how Amanda is being abused, not about how Mr. Lee's moans and groans and how he fights hard to continue to be a loser. Amanda's consent is obtained.

It is as simple as that. Unfortunately Mr. Lee makes his own image worse 。Mr. Mu Ran, the editor of 51.ca, and 现代日报 are showing off their ignorance and degrading their status in this community by taking a stand with Mr. Lee. Previously I

was never interested in expressing myself much thro the web, but this time I seriously could not bear to see the pathetic baby cry of Mr. Lee to decide to speak up. Men, admit it, he is an abuser, and is one who is cunning and unrependent. If Mr. Lee doesnt shut up, I think he should go to jail because sly man like him will cause problems to this society. What sickens me is how he tries to beautify his own heart and actions. Really I am not here to speak up because I dislike him , he is not worth my attention. Nevertheless, I dislike people like him who tries to exploit naive  handsome man such as Mr. Mu Ran and the editor to fight for him and for a cause detrimental to the integrity of the people of Canada. Put it simply, if any man is abused , they have exactly the same legal right and responsibility to call the police. Too bad, Mr. Lee, if you did not do it earlier than Amanda.
And frankly, I am also disgusted that平权会和 Chinese Family Services  are so so weak on their stand, the way they tackle Mr. Lee and Mr. Mu Ran is blurry too, all in gray. This handling is very much the Chinese 'Way of the Middle'中庸之道'. In this issue concerned, the middle way philosophy is totally incompetent and unprofessional. According to the law, there is only black and white, never gray. I do believe, in this respect, 平枚会和 Chinese Family Services must take a stronger stand to protect our society.
Finally, I respect 'Sedona' and 'Daydreaming' and those who speak with conscience. Dont ever forget, we need to protect the less fortunate. Mr. Lee, be a man, 不要死鸡撑饭盖！Wasting our time and your own .

  按你的方式来推理，那么假设Amanda吴是一个对孩子，对老公非打即骂，又为了占有财产而陷害他人的施暴者，那么《破》片
的拍摄又是什么行为呢，还要继续推理下去吗？

骑兵连连长

最初由[木然]发布
好像讨论在脱离话题。

没有人可以定李或吴谁对谁错，只有法官才能定，编辑部不能定，木然也不能定，平权会也不能定。

李有没有错？一定有，要不不会出现今天这样的结局。

问题是，平权会拍摄一个片子，采取真名真姓地演绎，拍摄前没有与李向东进行接触，了解，更没有取得李的同意，这合不合理？

现在我们假设，李向东确实是有暴力侵犯太太，我们搬这故事上荧幕，真名真姓，应不应该取得李家双方的同意呢？如果事情发生在你、我、他任何一个家庭，一个组织不经过你的同意，就将你的家事拍成电影、记录片去宣传，你会有什么感受？会接受这种事实吗？

一部用于宣传教育的片子，受到当事人投诉，这部片的原意还在吗？

个人意见，同意木然的观点。

不知道为什么有几个英文帖子总是认定女方没有错，一定是男的错。

要说率先把个人家事拿到公众面前的，不是李先生，而是平权会，未能与李先生核实，直接准备把女方的“真实事例”做成影片。

有几句话忍不住想问一下：

Those with power abuses the relationship and the less unfortunate vulnerable groups suffer. The vulnerable groups include seniors, women, children, employees and racial minorities, for examples.

我相信老人、儿童是弱势群体，因为体力和经济地位所决定；我也相信妇女是弱势群体，大部分 女性是受伤害的一方。但是“大部分”就能肯定所有家庭冲突中，百分之百都是男方的错，百分之百女性都是正义的吗？进一步说，如果男方有错，就肯定女方没有伤害他人吗？

FORMS OF WOMAN ABUSE


PHYSICAL

Any unwanted contact. May include hitting, slapping, pushing, kicking, burning, choking, locking her in her room, standing too close, restraining her in any way, picking her up, holding or hugging when it is unwanted, pointing a finger, poking her, hitting her with objects, using a weapon, murder, etc.

VERBAL/
EMOTIONAL/
PSYCHOLOGICAL

Insults, yelling, name calling, verbal threats (Ex: ‘I will kill myself if you..’) starting arguments, falsely accusing her of sleeping around, overly sarcastic or critical, trying to get the last word in, woman hating jokes or putdowns, including fear, intimidation, manipulation, humiliation, harassment, inappropriate expression of jealousy, brainwashing, dominance, laughing in her face, ignoring her, refusing to do things with or for her, abusing the children, getting his own way, not coming home, coming home drunk, real or suggested involvement with other women, comparing her with other women, taking away her responsibilities, treating her like a child, not keeping commitments, being rude, lack of consideration for her opinion, disbelieving her, ect.

SEXUAL

Rape, forcing unwanted acts, inflicting pain during intercourse, denying birth control, lack of intimacy, having affairs, hounding her for sex, refusing sex, treating her as a sex object, being rough, pornography, using sex as a basis for arguments, etc.

FINANCIAL

Denying money for wants or needs, denying information about couple’s financial situation, making all financial decisions, spending money foolishly or beyond means, not spending money on special occasions (Ex: birthdays), etc.

SOCIAL

Isolating her, denying access to a telephone, not taking responsibility for the children, embarrassment or insults in front of others, not letting her see her friends or family, not being nice to her friends or family, choosing his friends or family over her, not taking her out, keeping her busy in the kitchen at a party, change of personality with others, making a ‘scene’, etc.

这些行为男性对女性做是虐待，女性对男性做算不算虐待？算不算施暴？问问Amanda她是否一件都没有做过？

还有，在上面“SEXUAL”部分，“forcing unwanted acts”和“ refusing sex”都算"Abuse"。听说过“以子之矛，功子之盾”吗？

建议李先生找个信得过的律师咨询一下。

兰岷

支持木然。这部片子本身得出发点没有错。但是，既然是真人真事，就要全面了解，不能着听一面的。有些人恶人先告状
，动不动报911。以前我们店里也有一个女的围了吆喝她的老公离婚，老找事吵架。还报警，警擦来了，把她的老公管起来了，上法庭搞了几个月，最后女的后悔了，花了些钱，才把事情搞定。这敏敏是女的为了自己的目的可是有时候恶人先告状事态来了便易，有些女得知道加拿大是保护女的， 在家里比男的还凶动不动威吓老公，下的老公连大气都不敢出，这到底是谁怕谁。但是不管咋样，我们要本着实事求是，不能为了某些的原因，助长不良风气。