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楼主: Widowed Mom

刘女士探访儿子之后的最新情况

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发表于 2006-11-14 20:19:33 | 显示全部楼层

回复:What is Important?

哇, 这事看起来比预想的更严重: 拿disclosure就意味着有criminal charge(s), 这是真的吗? 看来这母亲面对着更严峻的形势.


最初由[PeelBoy]发布
What is Important?

.................
.................

I have a feeling you may be covering up.  In your first post, you didn't mention about your criminal charge(s).  Then, in the seccond, you talked about the disclosure, which is the statement for criminal hearing .  You never mentioned the child welfare court.  Your son was apprehended by CAS on October 10, so you must have attended the child welfare hearing on Occtober 16.  You must have been served with the Protection Application and the Affidavit by Friday, October 13.  These court document must have provided pages of details as evidence why your son is in need of protection.  I bet it must be based on Section 37 2a; please check your court paper.

................
发表于 2006-11-14 21:14:12 | 显示全部楼层
不少人都失去理性,这是法制社会,好好看看木然文章,对你要回孩子有帮助。提醒你一下,这关键时候别说自己有病,胳膊问题,一定给人一种沉着冷静,身体健康,有能力抚养孩子好母亲的印象。
发表于 2006-11-14 21:15:15 | 显示全部楼层
最初由[tiger666666]发布
不少人都失去理性,这是法制社会,好好看看木然文章,对你要回孩子有帮助。提醒你一下,这关键时候别说自己有病,胳膊问题,一定给人一种沉着冷静,身体健康,有能力抚养孩子好母亲的印象。  :thumbup:
发表于 2006-11-14 23:07:39 | 显示全部楼层

回复:What is Important?

PeelBoy 这个帖子是最专业也是对刘女士的案子最有帮助的文章了。希望刘女士能冷静下来好好读一下。不管CAS的问题有多么多,你要明确你自己的目的是要回孩子,而不是做一位”斗士“,不然最终的结果会是适得其反。

也建议赵先生把PeelBoy的帖子放置在首页,相信围绕这篇文章的讨论会使大家从中受益。


最初由[PeelBoy]发布
What is Important?

Dear Widowed Mom:

What is critical to your life is your son, not the child welfare operation in Ontario?  You should spend your time and energy seeing a social worker and/or a mental health practitioner to manage your emotion first, and a lawyer to deal with your criminal and CFSA cases.  You may not have the language capacity and cultural awareness to study the new law.  However, being an adult, you are responsible for your own behaviour and consequence.  If you believe spending your time and energy on these very dry reading is good for you, be my guest.  Just google Ontario Child Welfare Transformation and/or Bill 210, you will find lots of information.

You mis-quoted me.  The child welfare transformation is built in the CFSA Amendment Act that child welfare will be reviewed after 5 years.  It has nothing to do with any increase in complaints or any wrongful accusation by CAS.  I explained the swing in the legislation to illustrate how difficult it can be to definite child abuse, and most important to advise everyone CAS is the "messenger" to enforce the law.  You select your representative at Queen's Park to make the law.

Child welfare in Ontario, particularly Toronto CAS, a respectable agency I don't work for, definitely is not a rotten apple.  Again, what are your priorities?  Except a very few extreme scenarios, CAS can look after children's physical needs very well, but we cannot replace the parents to meet their psychological needs.  I am not a doctor, but I know too many methods to stimulate a young's child bowel movement.  We do not need Sick Kid Hospital for that purpose.  Dr. Robertson, if she is still there, is one of the most experienced medical experts.  I don't see why she will leave your son's minor health concern unattended.  This does not make sense to me.  If any of my staff would make such a mistake, he or she deserves termination on the spot.  You mentioned in the meeting, you saw 2 social workers, a resource worker and the foster mother.  The 2 social workers are family service worker and children's service worker.  The former is for you and the latter is your son, and part of the reason is check and balance to ensure no mistakes will be made.  All decisions have to be run by  a supervisor, and in your case, by the branch director and the director of service.  You are accusing the whole linear system is corrupted, which is a serious accusation.

May I ask if you have sufficient English language capacity to understand the proccess?  Were you accompanied by anyone during interaction with CAS and if so, did you companion had the same observation?  You either mis-interpret what had happened or ......

I have a feeling you may be covering up.  In your first post, you didn't mention about your criminal charge(s).  Then, in the seccond, you talked about the disclosure, which is the statement for criminal hearing.  You never mentioned the child welfare court.  Your son was apprehended by CAS on October 10, so you must have attended the child welfare hearing on Occtober 16.  You must have been served with the Protection Application and the Affidavit by Friday, October 13.  These court document must have provided pages of details as evidence why your son is in need of protection.  I bet it must be based on Section 37 2a; please check your court paper.

The key is the extend of the injury.  CAS, together with the SCAN Clinic (Suspected Child Abuse and Neglect) at Sick Kid are experts in identifying and documenting the injury.  Did you son have mark(s)?  Isolated or in pattern?  Linear, round or dot? New or old or both?  All these information will create a picture whether the child has been abused.  There should be discussion of this information and medical evidence outlined in your Protection Application.  I can't imagine Toronto CAS had apprehended your son, based on yelling and screaming.  Don't accuse your neighbour.  In Canada, we have Neighbourhood Watch.  If there is no evidence of abuse or neglect, how could Toronto CAS remove your child?

Dear Widowed Mom, I want to help you, but I also want to provide a fair picture to everyone on this forum for education purpose.  You should know it crystal clear how much I state above is accurate.

Please, after reading my post, ignore it and do not respond.  You should focus your time and energy on your emotional wellbeing and your relationship with your child, which is more critical to you.
发表于 2006-11-14 23:15:49 | 显示全部楼层

回复:What is Important?

最初由[PeelBoy]发布
The child welfare transformation is built in the CFSA Amendment Act that child welfare will be reviewed after 5 years.  It has nothing to do with any increase in complaints or any wrongful accusation by CAS.  


也就是说5年一次的审阅是例行公事,和投诉以及冤案的增加无关。但是前一段时间好像法律有变化,允许打屁股了,这也是和家长的呼吁分不开吧。感觉这里的孩子也有些太过于放任自流了。


I am not a doctor, but I know too many methods to stimulate a young's child bowel movement.  


那么楼主声嘶力竭所称“两周没有大便”不知道是不是属实,在医学上对最长时间不大便有没有什么研究。


I have a feeling you may be covering up.


还是讲事实,无罪推定吧,我觉得楼主还是爱子心切,先是失去丈夫,肯定全身心都在儿子身上,爱之弥深,恨铁不成钢也是有的。说她“covering up”(掩盖事实以解脱自己)有点过了。


If there is no evidence of abuse or neglect, how could Toronto CAS remove your child?

政府的拨款到底和求助孩子的数量是不是挂钩的?如果是,就不能排除CAS创收的嫌疑。

最后谢谢你的信息,在法官决定任何事情之前,对这位可怜的妈妈我们还是要以鼓励和理解为主,即便disclousure就是crimial charge,在法官判定之前,那也只是指控,局外人也不要轻易下结论。

不过,正如我第一次回贴所说,和CAS作斗争不会有什么结果,先要回孩子是要紧。
发表于 2006-11-14 23:27:39 | 显示全部楼层
最初由[tiger666666]发布
不少人都失去理性,这是法制社会,好好看看木然文章,对你要回孩子有帮助。提醒你一下,这关键时候别说自己有病,胳膊问题,一定给人一种沉着冷静,身体健康,有能力抚养孩子好母亲的印象。 说的对,任何的神经障碍和软弱表现,都是对你极不利的证据。还是要坚强,坚强。
发表于 2006-11-14 23:37:11 | 显示全部楼层

Peelboy is good person

再次支持eelboy, 刘女士应当集中精力全力准备将要发生的法律程序.  抱怨和对抗是起不了任何作用的. 召集媒体也不是好办法, 语多必失, CAS 是不可能因为媒体或任何压力就为你例外.  而且, 看来我们也不可能给CAS任何压力.  你反而有藐视法律的嫌疑.  Peelboy说的对, 你可能不喜欢CAS, 但你没可能一夜之间改变司法程序.

在中国, 上初中时, 有一个非常有名的案子, 一个望子成龙的妈妈活活打死了自己的独生子. 起因是孩子有一次考试成绩不理想. 妈妈是众所周之的好妈妈, 孩子是众所周之的好孩子. 就是说, 人人都会犯错误.

再次提醒大家, 我们并不了解事件的全部, 不要有过激言行, 不要刺激刘女士, 后果不堪设想.   对不起刘女士了, 不是说你有意掩盖事情. 我在中国做了几年律师, 当事人会把事情向有利于自己的方面说是人之常情. 希望你冷静, 再冷静.  全力以赴去解决问题. 关注你的进展.
发表于 2006-11-14 23:38:21 | 显示全部楼层

要斗争, 也应等到要回孩子之后

刘女士是个坚强的母亲,境遇也令人无限同情.

但咱觉得, 从刘女士第一次发表的文章看, 六女士显然这些年精神状态不太好(这是可以理解的), 也许影响到平时对孩子的态度上. 爱孩子是一回事, 孩子不听话时, 自己控制不好脾气是另一回事.
发表于 2006-11-15 08:17:42 | 显示全部楼层

回复:一切都会好起来的,再坚强点

最初由[透明心]发布
一切都会好起来的,再坚强点

每次看到刘女士的文章我都泪流满面,我真觉得心好痛,我太理解她的艰辛与无助,就算她有时有些冲动也是可以理解的,我懂得她心中所受的煎熬,因为她是个母亲,孩子是她的一切,她爱他,爱到心里。我也是个母亲,但我的英语太差,不能帮你什嬷,但我想告诉你,再坚强点,在坚持一段时间,一切都会好的,相信加拿大是讲道理的地方,该软的时候暂且先忍一忍,先承认自己有错误,保证以后注意改,先把孩子要回来,我知道你一定很要强,受了冤枉一定要讨回公道,但在战术上要讲究策略,真的不要急躁,一切都会好起来的。亲爱的,我们大家都是爱你的,我们的心和你一样在痛,我们的泪和你一起在流,相信吧,一切都会过去的,一切都会好起来。

你错了,加拿大绝对不是个讲道理的地方,一切依法办事。
发表于 2006-11-15 09:57:15 | 显示全部楼层

改变犹如远水,取胜要讲策略。

程序道貌岸然,
细节不通情理。
改变犹如远水,
取胜要讲策略。
发表于 2006-11-15 13:49:57 | 显示全部楼层

祝刘女士取胜

珍惜每次探视
联络所有朋友
争取邻居同情
收取一切证据
理智先于感情
感情衬托理智
接受朋友建议
忠言逆耳也听
保重身体要紧
积极主动配合
相信人间真情
云开日出团圆
发表于 2006-11-16 15:16:56 | 显示全部楼层

Money vs Humanity

I thought about stoping writing about CAS, however, in the past week or so, there was too much misunderstanding about child welfare in Ontario.  This not so accurate information and emotional reaction may hurt our Chinese community, becuase we may misinterpret CAS work and subsequently don't know how to respond when CAS shows at our door.

One somewhat overwhelming opinion is CAS took the child for money/funding.  It seems we being Chinese always view the outside world through the "lens of money", not humanity.  I would like to clarify how the funding system works.

Only senior managers have access to funding information and understand funding structure.  Case workers and supervisors do not know too much about the operation, so their decision making will not be affected by funding.

There are 53 CAS in Ontario.  In general, they are structured with the following departments: Intake, family services, children's services, support services and administration.

The Ministry of Child and Youth Services funds CAS based on bench marks.  For example, an investigation will give CAS 12.5 hours and an ongoing case 5.5 hours per month, which will then translate into revenues.  This is true a child coming into care means 5.5 hours per month of service, which is a bad "business transaction".  I will explain which department makes a profit and which not, as below.

Administration receives a fixed block funding from the Ministry, which is sufficient to hire clerical staff only.  All senior managers, training, HR, IT, QA and communication belong to this department, which needs subsidy from other departments for survival.  

Family Services and Support Services are about to break even (no profit, no loss).  They are responsible for providing support, counseling, referral, child management, therapy, high risk infant and other services.  The goal is to assist parents to maintain a safe and nurturning environment for their children.

Intake is where the lion's share of revenues are generated.  CAS receives 12.5 hours on every investigation.  In general, 80% of them are "false alarms", but they still have to investigate them.  Just like fire department, if you call to report a fire, they will come to help, even if it is a false alarm.  15% may refer to family services for ongoing support and less than 5% of the investigations will result in children coming into foster care.

Children's Service is the source of serious financial "bleeding".  CAS will have to "pay" the foster parents for cost of care.  Foster parents are volunteers who contribute their free time to help.  They do not receive any salary.  For those with health or emotional problem, the children will have to go to Outside Paid Resources, which are group homes operated by other organizations.  They charge CAS anywhere between $150 to $400 a day, because they provide accommodation, food and intensive staff supervision.  Besides per diem, CAS pays child's health cost, medical and dental care, clothing, psychological assessment, treatment, education (like one on one CYW support at school) and even vacation (they go on vacation with foster parents).

Overall, about 35% of the funding goes to salary and office expenses, 15% to protection support services and 50% towards cost of caring for children.

If I am allowed to run CAS like a business to make a profit, I would do the following:

1. Discharge all children from CAS care, regardless of their safety.  Data shows that Intake Department always has to subsidize the Children's Service Department.  One more child in care means one more source of financial bleeding.

2. Shut down Support Services and Family Services, since they never bring in any net income.  Just like our banks, they shut down branches which cannot bring them any profit.

3. Shut down Administration and fire PeelBoy as well.  We don't need management.

4. Expand Intake. Keep doing investigations.

Of course, if any CAS has such a structure, the Ministry will take over the agency.  CAS protects children from the lens of humanity, not quite as what we think about them.

I notice the lost of momentum.  My post may be the last one on this board.  I still have one more interesting item to share: How to Handle CAS at Your Door, if anyone still wants to read it.
发表于 2006-11-16 15:32:32 | 显示全部楼层

回复:Money vs Humanity

最初由[PeelBoy]发布
Money vs Humanity

I thought about stoping writing about CAS, however, in the past week or so, there was too much misunderstanding about child welfare in Ontario.  This not so accurate information and emotional reaction may hurt our Chinese community, becuase we may misinterpret CAS work and subsequently don't know how to respond when CAS shows at our door.

One somewhat overwhelming opinion is CAS took the child for money/funding.  It seems we being Chinese always view the outside world through the "lens of money", not humanity.  I would like to clarify how the funding system works.

Only senior managers have access to funding information and understand funding structure.  Case workers and supervisors do not know too much about the operation, so their decision making will not be affected by funding.

There are 53 CAS in Ontario.  In general, they are structured with the following departments: Intake, family services, children's services, support services and administration.

The Ministry of Child and Youth Services funds CAS based on bench marks.  For example, an investigation will give CAS 12.5 hours and an ongoing case 5.5 hours per month, which will then translate into revenues.  This is true a child coming into care means 5.5 hours per month of service, which is a bad "business transaction".  I will explain which department makes a profit and which not, as below.

Administration receives a fixed block funding from the Ministry, which is sufficient to hire clerical staff only.  All senior managers, training, HR, IT, QA and communication belong to this department, which needs subsidy from other departments for survival.  

Family Services and Support Services are about to break even (no profit, no loss).  They are responsible for providing support, counseling, referral, child management, therapy, high risk infant and other services.  The goal is to assist parents to maintain a safe and nurturning environment for their children.

Intake is where the lion's share of revenues are generated.  CAS receives 12.5 hours on every investigation.  In general, 80% of them are "false alarms", but they still have to investigate them.  Just like fire department, if you call to report a fire, they will come to help, even if it is a false alarm.  15% may refer to family services for ongoing support and less than 5% of the investigations will result in children coming into foster care.

Children's Service is the source of serious financial "bleeding".  CAS will have to "pay" the foster parents for cost of care.  Foster parents are volunteers who contribute their free time to help.  They do not receive any salary.  For those with health or emotional problem, the children will have to go to Outside Paid Resources, which are group homes operated by other organizations.  They charge CAS anywhere between $150 to $400 a day, because they provide accommodation, food and intensive staff supervision.  Besides per diem, CAS pays child's health cost, medical and dental care, clothing, psychological assessment, treatment, education (like one on one CYW support at school) and even vacation (they go on vacation with foster parents).

Overall, about 35% of the funding goes to salary and office expenses, 15% to protection support services and 50% towards cost of caring for children.

If I am allowed to run CAS like a business to make a profit, I would do the following:

1. Discharge all children from CAS care, regardless of their safety.  Data shows that Intake Department always has to subsidize the Children's Service Department.  One more child in care means one more source of financial bleeding.

2. Shut down Support Services and Family Services, since they never bring in any net income.  Just like our banks, they shut down branches which cannot bring them any profit.

3. Shut down Administration and fire PeelBoy as well.  We don't need management.

4. Expand Intake. Keep doing investigations.

Of course, if any CAS has such a structure, the Ministry will take over the agency.  CAS protects children from the lens of humanity, not quite as what we think about them.

I notice the lost of momentum.  My post may be the last one on this board.  I still have one more interesting item to share: How to Handle CAS at Your Door, if anyone still wants to read it.

俺很少夸人, 不过还是要夸这位大哥哥 :thumbu:  :thumbu:  :thumbu:
发表于 2006-11-16 17:04:57 | 显示全部楼层
Thank you very much for your sharing.

The populatioin of Ontario in 2006 is 12.7 million, the Children between 0-14 years old are about 19.6% of the total population, which is 2.5 million.
发表于 2006-11-16 20:46:47 | 显示全部楼层

回复:Money vs Humanity

最初由[PeelBoy]发布
世上还是好人多,希望刘女士好好向PeelBoy先生请教沟通,也希望PeelBoy先生能尽力帮助刘女士要回孩子

Money vs Humanity

I thought about stoping writing about CAS, however, in the past week or so, there was too much misunderstanding about child welfare in Ontario.  This not so accurate information and emotional reaction may hurt our Chinese community, becuase we may misinterpret CAS work and subsequently don't know how to respond when CAS shows at our door.

One somewhat overwhelming opinion is CAS took the child for money/funding.  It seems we being Chinese always view the outside world through the "lens of money", not humanity.  I would like to clarify how the funding system works.

Only senior managers have access to funding information and understand funding structure.  Case workers and supervisors do not know too much about the operation, so their decision making will not be affected by funding.

There are 53 CAS in Ontario.  In general, they are structured with the following departments: Intake, family services, children's services, support services and administration.

The Ministry of Child and Youth Services funds CAS based on bench marks.  For example, an investigation will give CAS 12.5 hours and an ongoing case 5.5 hours per month, which will then translate into revenues.  This is true a child coming into care means 5.5 hours per month of service, which is a bad "business transaction".  I will explain which department makes a profit and which not, as below.

Administration receives a fixed block funding from the Ministry, which is sufficient to hire clerical staff only.  All senior managers, training, HR, IT, QA and communication belong to this department, which needs subsidy from other departments for survival.  

Family Services and Support Services are about to break even (no profit, no loss).  They are responsible for providing support, counseling, referral, child management, therapy, high risk infant and other services.  The goal is to assist parents to maintain a safe and nurturning environment for their children.

Intake is where the lion's share of revenues are generated.  CAS receives 12.5 hours on every investigation.  In general, 80% of them are "false alarms", but they still have to investigate them.  Just like fire department, if you call to report a fire, they will come to help, even if it is a false alarm.  15% may refer to family services for ongoing support and less than 5% of the investigations will result in children coming into foster care.

Children's Service is the source of serious financial "bleeding".  CAS will have to "pay" the foster parents for cost of care.  Foster parents are volunteers who contribute their free time to help.  They do not receive any salary.  For those with health or emotional problem, the children will have to go to Outside Paid Resources, which are group homes operated by other organizations.  They charge CAS anywhere between $150 to $400 a day, because they provide accommodation, food and intensive staff supervision.  Besides per diem, CAS pays child's health cost, medical and dental care, clothing, psychological assessment, treatment, education (like one on one CYW support at school) and even vacation (they go on vacation with foster parents).

Overall, about 35% of the funding goes to salary and office expenses, 15% to protection support services and 50% towards cost of caring for children.

If I am allowed to run CAS like a business to make a profit, I would do the following:

1. Discharge all children from CAS care, regardless of their safety.  Data shows that Intake Department always has to subsidize the Children's Service Department.  One more child in care means one more source of financial bleeding.

2. Shut down Support Services and Family Services, since they never bring in any net income.  Just like our banks, they shut down branches which cannot bring them any profit.

3. Shut down Administration and fire PeelBoy as well.  We don't need management.

4. Expand Intake. Keep doing investigations.

Of course, if any CAS has such a structure, the Ministry will take over the agency.  CAS protects children from the lens of humanity, not quite as what we think about them.

I notice the lost of momentum.  My post may be the last one on this board.  I still have one more interesting item to share: How to Handle CAS at Your Door, if anyone still wants to read it.
  :clap:  :clap:
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