...没有那么傻的总统炸自己的世贸大厦栽赃。... 这种想法就是许多人没看通911事件的关键点之一。 他们没明白美国总统只是美国少数几个美国国际大财团的木偶人罢了，那些国际大财团人物的根源、本性、战略目标和惯用手法是什么，许多人都不了解 |
本帖最后由 飞鱼IT 于 2014-8-14 13:29 编辑 为达到不可告人的目的而不择手段。 无疑马航MH17、911和伊拉克拥核等事件及其“主流”媒体报道都是一脉相承的 不过我认为911是真的。 也许是弱国对强国一种策略，人体炸弹就是以色列在弱的时候使用的一种方法。 自从911后，美国经济一落千丈，没有那么傻的总统炸自己的世贸大厦栽赃。 另外，美国是强国，毁自己造舆论，代价太大，不合适。 911后美国就开始衰退了，本拉登打击美国的目的最后达到了。（本拉登是美国在阿富汗培养的对付前苏联的力量） |
| 为达到不可告人的目的而不择手段。 无疑马航MH17、911和伊拉克拥核等事件及其“主流”媒体报道都是一脉相承的 |
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据马拉西亚 《新海峡时报》报道： Retired Lufthansa pilot Peter Haisenko deduced that in order to have some of those holes fraying inwardly, and the others fraying outwardly, there had to have been a second fighter firing into the cockpit from the airliner’s starboard side. This is critical, as no surface-fired missile (or shrapnel) hitting the airliner could possibly punch holes into the cockpit from both sides of the plane. “It had to have been a hail of bullets from both sides that brought the plane down. This is Haisenko’s main discovery. You can’t have projectiles going in both directions — into the left-hand-side fuselage panel from both its left and right sides — unless they are coming at the panel from different directions. “Nobody before Haisenko had noticed that the projectiles had ripped through that panel from both its left side and its right side. This is what rules out any ground-fired missile,” Parry had said. 炮弹是从左右两个方向同时击穿客机。飞机残骸显示飞机遭受2种武器袭击。飞机2侧受到不同武器袭击。 这完全排除了客机是被地对空导弹击落的。 |
回复 YOUTUBE上的录像据说是 MH１７被击落之前的。似乎车主已经找到了。 |
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本帖最后由 飞鱼IT 于 2014-8-12 14:08 编辑 美国的侦查卫星若不公布图片资料，难以获得真相。 因为参加调查的是马航和荷兰，都是弱小国家，也许最后结论会被和谐。 个人认为，不管谁击落MH17，乌克兰官方至少要负95%的责任。 1、客机在乌克兰领空被击落。主人没有保护好客人。不安全就应该封锁通道。 2、乌克兰战机为什么尾随MH17？ 导致客机偏离航线到战区上空被击落。 战区什么事情都可发生。 3、乌克兰和乌克兰民间武装都有BUK导弹车在战区。 乌克兰BUK 导弹车有卫星图片证实。 MH17被击落后消失。（ http://rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-plane-russia-ukraine/） |
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回复 27# 打一地名 https://www.youtube.com/watch?fe ... d&v=MduT109qfP0 里面有数百条关于BUK车视频评论，各种意见，可以去看看。 |
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http://rt.com/usa/179284-ron-paul-mh17-ukraine/ Ron Paul: US 'likely hiding truth' on downed Malaysian Flight MH17 Published time: August 10, 2014 13:06 Edited time: August 11, 2014 11:49 Get short URL Ron Paul (AFP Photo / Brendan Smialowski) Ron Paul (AFP Photo / Brendan Smialowski) 14.5K2.6K74 Trends Malaysia MH17 plane crash Tags Arms, Clashes, Conflict, Intelligence, Obama, Politics, Robert Bridge, Sanctions, Security, USA, Ukraine, War Former Congressman Ron Paul said the US knows ‘more than it is telling’ about the Malaysian aircraft that crashed in eastern Ukraine last month, killing 298 people on board and seriously damaging US-Russian relations in the process. In an effort to inject some balance of opinion, not to mention pure sanity, into the ongoing debate over what happened to Malaysian Flight MH17, Ron Paul is convinced the US government is withholding information on the catastrophe. "The US government has grown strangely quiet on the accusation that it was Russia or her allies that brought down the Malaysian airliner with a Buk anti-aircraft missile," Paul said on his news website on Thursday. Ron Paul to Obama: Let’s just leave Ukraine alone! Paul’s comments are in sharp contrast to the echo chamber of one-sided opinion inside Western mainstream media, which has almost unanimously blamed anti-Kiev militia for bringing down the commercial airline. Incredibly, in many cases Washington had nothing to show as evidence to incriminate pro-Russian rebels aside from tenuous references to social media. “We’ve seen that there were heavy weapons moved from Russia to Ukraine, that they have moved into the hands of separatist leaders,” said White House spokesman Josh Earnest. “And according to social media reports, those weapons include the SA-11 [Buk missile] system.” In another instance, State Department spokeswoman Marie Harf told reporters “the Russians intend to deliver heavier and more powerful rocket launchers to the separatist forces in Ukraine, and have evidence that Russia is firing artillery from within Russia to attack Ukrainian military positions.” When veteran AP reporter Matthew Lee asked for proof, he was to be disappointed. “I can’t get into the sources and methods behind it,” Harf responded. “I can’t tell you what the information is based on.” Lee said the allegations made by the State Department on Ukraine have fallen far short of “definitive proof.” Just days after US intelligence officials admitted they had no conclusive evidence to prove Russia was behind the downing of the airliner, Kiev published satellite images as ‘proof’ it didn’t deploy anti-aircraft batteries around the MH17 crash site. However, these images have altered time-stamps and are from the days after the MH17 tragedy, the Russian Defense Ministry revealed, fully discrediting the Ukrainian claims. In yet another inexplicable occurrence, Russian military detected a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter jet approaching the MH17 Boeing on the day of the catastrophe. No acceptable explanation has ever been given by Kiev as to why this fighter aircraft was so close to the doomed passenger jet moments before it was brought down. “[We] would like to get an explanation as to why the military jet was flying along a civil aviation corridor at almost the same time and at the same level as a passenger plane,” Russian Lieutenant-General Andrey Kartopolov demanded days after the crash. Paul has slammed the Obama administration, despite its arsenal of surveillance technologies at its disposal, for its failure to provide a single grain of evidence to solve the mystery of the Malaysian airliner. "It’s hard to believe that the US, with all of its spy satellites available for monitoring everything in Ukraine, that precise proof of who did what and when is not available," the two-time presidential candidate said. "Too bad we can’t count on our government to just tell us the truth and show us the evidence," Paul added. "I’m convinced that it knows a lot more than it’s telling us." Although no sufficient evidence has been presented to prove that the anti-Kiev militia was responsible for the downing of the international flight, such an inconvenient oversight has not stopped the United States and Europe from slapping economic sanctions and travel bans against Russia. Moscow hit back, saying it would place a ban on agricultural imports from the United States and the European Union. Russia’s tit-for-tat ban will certainly be felt, as food and agricultural imports from the US amounted to $1.3 billion last year, according to the US Department of Agriculture. In 2013, meanwhile, the EU’s agricultural exports to Russia totaled 11.8 billion euros ($15.8 billion). After the crash, Ron Paul was one of a few voices calling for calm as US officials were pointing fingers without a shred of evidence to support their claims. Paul has not been afraid to say the painfully obvious things the US media, for any number of reasons, cannot find the courage to articulate. “They will not report that the crisis in Ukraine started late last year, when EU and US-supported protesters plotted the overthrow of the elected Ukrainian president, Viktor Yanukovych,” Paul said. “Without US-sponsored ‘regime change,’ it is unlikely that hundreds would have been killed in the unrest that followed. Nor would the Malaysian Airlines crash have happened.” Paul also found it outrageous that Western media, parroting the government line, has reported that the Malaysian flight must have been downed by “Russian-backed separatists,” because the BUK missile that reportedly brought down the aircraft was Russian made. “They will not report that the Ukrainian government also uses the exact same Russian-made weapons,” he emphasized. |
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本帖最后由 飞鱼IT 于 2014-8-12 13:37 编辑 http://rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-plane-russia-ukraine/ Ukrainian Su-25 fighter detected in close approach to MH17 before crash - Moscow Published time: July 21, 2014 12:59 Edited time: July 22, 2014 15:03 Get short URL Download video (80.3 MB) 37.5K5K117 Trends Malaysia MH17 plane crash, Ukraine turmoil Tags Air Force, Army, Conflict, Military, Missile defense, Russia, Ukraine The Russian military detected a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter jet gaining height towards the MH17 Boeing on the day of the catastrophe. Kiev must explain why the military jet was tracking the passenger airplane, the Russian Defense Ministry said. Follow Malaysia Airlines MH17 plane crash in Ukraine LIVE UPDATES “A Ukraine Air Force military jet was detected gaining height, it’s distance from the Malaysian Boeing was 3 to 5km,” said the head of the Main Operations Directorate of the HQ of Russia’s military forces, Lieutenant-General Andrey Kartopolov speaking at a media conference in Moscow on Monday. “[We] would like to get an explanation as to why the military jet was flying along a civil aviation corridor at almost the same time and at the same level as a passenger plane,” he stated. “The SU-25 fighter jet can gain an altitude of 10km, according to its specification,” he added. “It’s equipped with air-to-air R-60 missiles that can hit a target at a distance up to 12km, up to 5km for sure.” The presence of the Ukrainian military jet can be confirmed by video shots made by the Rostov monitoring center, Kartopolov stated. At the moment of the MH17 crash an American satellite was flying over the area of eastern Ukraine, according to Russia’s Defense Ministry. It urged the US to publish the space photos and data captured by it. ‘Ukrainian Buk missile system transported to militia-held area’ In addition, MH17 crashed within the operating zone of the Ukrainian army’s self-propelled, medium-range surface-to-air ‘Buk’ missile systems, the Russian general said. “We have space images of certain places where the Ukraine’s air defense was located in the southeast of the country,” Kartapolov noted. The first three shots that were shown by the general are dated July 14. The images show Buk missile launch systems in about 8km northwest of the city of Lugansk – a TELAR and two TELs, according to the military official. Another image shows a radar station near Donetsk. Radar stations of the air defense in Donetsk Region, 5km north of Donetsk city, on July 14, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry Radar stations of the air defense in Donetsk Region, 5km north of Donetsk city, on July 14, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry While the third picture shows the location of the air defense systems near Donetsk, he explained. In particular, one can clearly see a TELAR launcher and about 60 military and auxiliary vehicles, tents for vehicles and other structures, he elaborated. Buk missile defense units in Donetsk Region, 5km north of Donetsk city, on July 14, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry Buk missile defense units in Donetsk Region, 5km north of Donetsk city, on July 14, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry “Images from this area were also made on July 17. One should notice that the missile launcher is absent [from the scene]. Image number five shows the Buk missile system in the morning of the same day in the area of settlement Zaroschinskoe – 50km south of Donetsk and 8km south of Shakhtyorsk," the Kartapolov said. No Buk missile defense units in Donetsk Region, 5km north of Donetsk city, on July 17, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry No Buk missile defense units in Donetsk Region, 5km north of Donetsk city, on July 17, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry Buk missile defense units in Zaroschinskoe, 50km south of Donetsk city and 8km south of Shakhtyorsk, on July 17, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry Buk missile defense units in Zaroschinskoe, 50km south of Donetsk city and 8km south of Shakhtyorsk, on July 17, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry The question that has to be answered is why the missile system appeared near the area controlled by the local militia forces shortly before the catastrophe, he stated. Images taken on July 18 show that the missile systems left the area of the MH17 crash, the military official said. Kartapolov also pointed to the fact that on the day of the plane crash Ukraine’s military increased activity on the part of Ukraine’s Kupol-M1 9S18 radars, which are part of the Buk system. "..there were 7 radars operating on July 15, 8 radars operating on July 16, and 9 radars operating on July 17 in the area. Then, starting with July 18, the intensity of radar activities radically decreased, and now there are no more than two or three radars operating a day. The reason behind this is yet to be found." In response to Moscow’s evidence, Kiev said on Monday it had proof the missile that brought down a Malaysian airliner last week came from Russia. "There is evidence that the missile which struck the plane was fired by terrorists, who received arms and specialists from the Russian Federation," spokesman for Ukraine's Security Council Andrey Lysenko told a news conference. "To disown this tragedy, [Russia] are drawing a lot of pictures and maps. We will explore any photos and other plans produced by the Russian side." Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko said on Monday that Kiev has “strong evidence” of the causes of the MH17 crash. “We know exactly the place [the surface-to-air missile was] launched, we know exactly the place where it hit the civilian plane and the place where the plane crashed.” Kiev is ready to hand the information to the international investigation commission, according to the presidential press-service. |
| The matter of truth is the pro-russia separatists had swept the plane wreckage numerous times and blocked international investigators from entering the scene for weeks. It doesn't take an utter fool to suspect that the evidences indicating to the true version of airstrike have been either destroyed or altered to what they appear to be today. |
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本帖最后由 酒中仙 于 2014-8-12 12:50 编辑 回复 26# 飞鱼IT 【林忌评论】假新闻的中港融合 8月9日香港电台发布了一单令人震惊的国际新闻，题目为「马媒引述美情报机构：客机或被乌政府击落」，内文说「美国情报部门已经得出结论，认为马航 MH17是被空对空导弹击落…是被乌克兰政府击落」;这新闻实在非常「爆炸性」，因为美国情报部门达成如此惊人的结论，竟不见于任何美国或英文的传媒，却先被「马媒引述」再成为香港电台的新闻，究竟为甚么? 真相就是，香港电台表面自称是引述马来西亚《新海峡时报》的报导，实际上却是抄中共的《环球时报》，把原文搬字过纸，当成是自己从马来西亚的报纸翻译成为中文。「美国情报部门得出结论」这十字，就是从环时原字抄录，香港电台甚至从环时所写的「美情报人士认定」标题，改为「马媒引述美情报机构」，以讹传讹不断「作大」，而事实上马来西亚那篇报导，所写的只有「一些美国情报来源」，而引述的作者是「一位美联社记者」 Robert Perry。 而这位 Robert Perry实际上早已于1987年，即27年前，已经离开了美联社，近年更被评长期亲俄国，宣扬俄国的观点;更甚者，此作者的原文只提及「一些美国的情报分析员」，既没有列出来源，当中更荒谬到犯上一些基本的错误──例如宣称MH17上有「子弹痕迹」，因此相信是乌克兰的战机及「空对空导弹」所造成云云。实际上，俄制的山毛榉「地对空导弹」会在目标的近处爆炸，再令碎片击中目标的机身，这早在事发后被一众军事评论谈及。10日，马来西亚的国防部长拿督斯里希山慕丁，回覆记者提问否认「空对空导弹」击落的说法，等同否定了上述报导的可能性。 香港电台的新闻犯了两个严重错误，第一是抄新闻，把环时报导搬字过纸当作自己的;第二是假扮引述马来西亚的报导，实际上却来自环时，因此犯上和环时一模一样的荒谬错误。这次事件证明了一点，香港、台湾以至海外的华文传媒，一直被中共以直接或间接的方式长期渗透，简单至抄文以及懒惰的恶习，已经成功帮中共把政府的洗脑宣传机器，把维稳工程由中国大陆成功扩展到全世界;透过这些假外电报导，篡改当中关键的字眼，甚至引述一些表面上是外媒，实际上是「假外媒」如中共在日本的《日本新闻网》，以及中共在法国的《欧洲时报》，令华文传媒的公信力，集体沦落到和中共的传媒一样，假新闻处处，不断帮中共洗脑。 这说明了为何由中国大陆到海外，都有这么多反日反美反欧等所谓「爱国人士」，这些人根本不知道，自己和北韩那些绝对资讯封锁者，只是五十步笑百步，只有程度上的差别，本质是一样的。情况就有如中国奶粉不可靠，以为买的是洋奶粉，实际上却仍然是中国生产或渗了毒的。想走出这个困局，实在难上加难。(自由亚洲电台粤语部评论) |
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TheSysX says: August 6, 2014 at 5:48 am Again another *** story and easy to refute. 1) Operational (service) ceiling of the US-25 is 7.000m (MH17 was flying at 10.000) which would make a bit hard to successfully target and hit a fast (900km/h vs ) moving plane with a board cannon. 2) Effective Air-to-Air range of the Su-25 (GSch-302 /AO-17A) cannon is between 500m-800m, while its Air-to-Ground range is between 1.200m-1.800m (which it is its intended use as Ground support fighter) 3) Compare the damage done (much larger and uniform shaped holes) to this (target practice) APC (armored vehicle) by a 30mm Air-to-Ground cannon [http://tinyurl.com/ly5mcmn] [http://tinyurl.com/olqzujx], to the irregular and sharp edged holes in the MH17 fuselage [http://tinyurl.com/luyk59k]. You may also read this Russian article quoting Vladimir Babak (chief designer of the SU-25 fighter plane), that in his opinion, it is very unlikely that a SU-25 could have shot down MH17.. (http://www.aex.ru/news/2014/7/28/122697/) Russian fighter pilot doctrine (as All Ukraine are Russian trained) does NOT dictate a cross fire (2 pronged) attack on a single target in flight.It is not only very hard to time and execute (remember max firing distance of 30mm canon is 800m and all 3 planes would be flying around 900km/h) but it is also very very dangerous. One of the pilots may miss the MH17 and hit his wingman.. This is just a stupid theory. |
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RAJ says: August 5, 2014 at 12:57 pm Please see http://www.malaysiakini.com/news/270700 “A lorry owner claimed that his white Volvo heavy vehicle was used by Russian separatists to smuggle the alleged BUK missile that shot down Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 into Ukraine. The owner identified by Lithuanian website alfa.it as Vasilijus, has said the video taken by Ukrainian intelligence officials show pro-Russian militants used his lorry to transport the BUK missile. “Yes, this is my vehicle. It is easy to recognise. We know our vehicles. Yes it is ours,” Vasilijus confirmed with the Lithuanian website as reported by Australiannews.com.au. “It is the only Volvo with such a cabin,” he added. Vasilijus claimed that his base in Donetsk was taken over on July 8 – nine days before the gunning down of the jetliner, and the lorry was used to transport the missile that was parked there. The Ukrainian intelligence video showed a convoy transporting the missile launcher across Donetsk, and this is seen as evidence of it being used by Russian separatists who allegedly shot down the MH17 Boeing 777 aircraft that killed 298 passengers and flight crew on board. The footage showed the vehicle heading towards Russia. Vasilijus confirmed that his base is still in rebel hands and he is expected to be a key witness in the investigation in identifying who was responsible in the downing of the airliner.” |
本帖最后由 飞鱼IT 于 2014-8-12 08:29 编辑 所列出的这些不是疑问就是假说，都还不是结论。需要等待调查结果，也可能永远没有结果。 我认为乌克兰为了脱离当时的困境（乌克兰政府军当时几乎面临被全歼），为了得到更多的支持，企图栽赃乌克兰民间武装， 精心设计了这次事件： 1、乌克兰政府不配合此次调查。荷兰人对乌克兰特别不满意（英国报道）。乌克兰在没有结论之前就对媒体宣布是乌克兰民间武装误击落马航客机。 2、让飞机偏离航线。 3、战斗机尾随马航MH17，挟持飞机偏离航线，到达战区上空，造成被乌克兰民间（背后俄罗斯）武装击落的假象。（导致俄罗斯被制裁） 4、及时播放录音和BUK导弹车视频 5、西方在没有结论之前就开始谴责和制裁俄罗斯。 6、未提供第三个黑匣子 7、荷兰在等美国卫星资料进行进一步证实。美国到目前为止尚未提供资料。 8、马航此次对乌克兰也相当不满意，说只能通过自己的方法要回到2个来自民间武装的黑匣子。 9、客机遭受了2种武器的袭击。 10、挑了个小国客机下手。（如果这次掉下的是美国客机，我的分析一定不一样，美国卫星资料也会立刻公布） |
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