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标题: 马航MH17被亲美乌克兰政府空对空导弹击落,后被乌克兰政府加农炮彻底摧毁 [打印本页]
作者: 飞鱼IT    时间: 2014-8-9 06:35
标题: 马航MH17被亲美乌克兰政府空对空导弹击落,后被乌克兰政府加农炮彻底摧毁
本帖最后由 飞鱼IT 于 2014-8-9 08:14 编辑

MH17 Brought Down by Air-to-Air Missile, Finished Off by 30-mm Cannon, Experts AllegeBy Ria Novosti
Global Research, August 07, 2014
RIA Novosti

Region: Russia and FSU
In-depth Report: UKRAINE REPORT




231

215
11


5862




http://www.globalresearch.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Malaysia-MH171.jpg

Mikhail Voskresenskiy



The Malaysian Boeing plane that crashed in eastern Ukraine in mid-July, could have been brought down by an air-to-air missile and a cannon of the Su-25 fighter that had been “shadowing it,” The New Straits Times reported on Wednesday citing experts.

Experts believe that MH17 flight was shot down by an air-to-air missile fired from the fighter that later finished it off with a burst of 30mm cannon fire, the newspaper has reported.

According to the experts, if this hypothesis is true, it would explain the bullet holes in some sections of MH17’s fuselage.

http://en.ria.ru/images/19107/78/191077812.jpg

Malaysian Boeing crashes in Ukraine

“Some showed blast patterns consistent with shrapnel from a proximity-fused weapon while some showed the more precise grouping consistent with that of cannon fire. We’re analyzing this,” said one of the sources, adding that a detailed analysis of the pieces of the jetliner is needed to corroborate this emerging theory.

Under this new version, the heat-seeker would have aimed at the hottest part of the aircraft’s engines. These claims rule out the previous version that the aircraft had been downed by the BUK missile system (NATO SA-11 ‘Gadfly’).

“A BUK-M1, with its 70 kg head, would have been enough bring down the airliner without the need to go in for a guns kill,” the sources said.

The Sukhoi Su-25 close-air support aircraft (NATO Frogfoot) has a maximum service ceiling of about 25,000 feet (7,620 meters). It has an internally mounted 30mm cannon for anti-armor work, the report said.

“The Su-25 would have been operating at the extreme corner of its performance envelope but it’s entirely possible,” the sources added.

Five days after the deadly crash, the Russian Defense Ministry said that the “shadowing” the MH17 was a Russian-manufactured Sukhoi Su-25 close-air support aircraft operated by the Ukrainian Air Force.

The presence of the Ukrainian combat jet can be confirmed by video shots made by the Rostov monitoring center, said Lt. Gen. Andrei Kartapolov, the head of the Main Operations Directorate of the HQ of Russia’s military forces.

The ministry’ s analysis of MH17 showed that the Russian air traffic control system picked up a deviation in the flight path of 14 kilometers north from the fixed corridor, well inside Ukrainian airspace, while following its assigned flight level of 33,000 feet.

This deviation in the flight path could have been performed only under the instruction of Ukraine’s air traffic controllers. Russian radar nets also picked up “activity” by the Ukrainian Air Force in the area at the time MH17 was airborne.

The air-to-ground transmission tapes between MH17 and Ukrainian air traffic controllers were seized by the Ukrainian Security Service on the day of the shootdown and have not been made available to investigators.

Media reports said earlier that the information provided by the black boxes from the Boeing plane, which have not been so far unveiled to public, said that the aircraft was damaged by multiple fragments of a missile.

作者: 飞鱼IT    时间: 2014-8-9 06:38
标题: 美国专家分析: MH17被乌克兰战机上空对空导弹击落
本帖最后由 飞鱼IT 于 2014-8-9 09:03 编辑

US analysts conclude MH17 downed by aircraft
An armed Ukrainian stands on part of the wreckage of the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 plane after it crashed near the settlement of Grabovo in the Donetsk region, July 17, 2014.
An armed Ukrainian stands on part of the wreckage of the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 plane after it crashed near the settlement of Grabovo in the Donetsk region, July 17, 2014.
Thu Aug 7, 2014 2:45PM
Haris Hussain, New Straits Times Online
Related Interviews:
'Satellite data on MH17 must be released'
Related Viewpoints:
Who is blocking MH17 probe? Why?
Intelligence analysts in the United States had already concluded that Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was shot down by an air-to-air missile and that the Ukrainian government had something to do with it.

This corroborates an emerging theory postulated by local investigators that the Boeing 777-200 was crippled by an air-to-air missile and finished off with cannon fire from a fighter that had been shadowing it as it plummeted to earth.

In a damning report dated Aug 3, headlined “Flight 17 Shoot-Down Scenario Shifts”, Associated Press reporter Robert Parry said, “some US intelligence sources had concluded that the rebels and Russia were likely not at fault and that it appears Ukrainian government forces were to blame.”

This new revelation was posted on GlobalResearch, an independent research and media organization.

In a statement released by the Ukrainian embassy on Tuesday, Kiev denied that its fighters were airborne during the time MH17 was shot down. This follows a statement released by the Russian Defense Ministry that its air traffic control had detected Ukrainian Air Force activity in the area on the same day.

They also denied all allegations made by the Russian government and said the country’s core interest was in ensuring an immediate, comprehensive, transparent and unbiased international investigation into the tragedy by establishing a state commission comprising experts from the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) and Eurocontrol.

“We have evidence that the plane was downed by Russian-backed terrorist with a BUK-M1 SAM system (North Atlantic Treaty Organization reporting name SA-11) which, together with the crew, had been supplied from Russia. This was all confirmed by our intelligence, intercepted telephone conversations of the terrorists and satellite pictures.

“At the same time, the Ukrainian Armed Forces have never used any anti-aircraft missiles since the anti-terrorist operations started in early April,” the statement read.

Yesterday, the New Straits Times quoted experts who had said that photographs of the blast fragmentation patterns on the fuselage of the airliner showed two distinct shapes — the shredding pattern associated with a warhead packed with “flechettes”, and the more uniform, round-type penetration holes consistent with that of cannon rounds.

Parry’s conclusion also stemmed from the fact that despite assertions from the Obama administration, there has not been a shred of tangible evidence to support the conclusion that Russia supplied the rebels with the BUK-M1 anti-aircraft missile system that would be needed to hit a civilian jetliner flying at 33,000 feet.

Parry also cited a July 29 Canadian Broadcasting Corporation interview with Michael Bociurkiw, one of the first Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) investigators to arrive at the scene of the disaster, near Donetsk.

Bociurkiw is a Ukrainian-Canadian monitor with OSCE who, along with another colleague, were the first international monitors to reach the wreckage after flight MH17 was brought down over eastern Ukraine.

In the CBC interview, the reporter in the video preceded it with: “The wreckage was still smoldering when a small team from the OSCE got there. No other officials arrived for days.”

“There have been two or three pieces of fuselage that have been really pockmarked with what almost looks like machinegun fire; very, very strong machinegun fire,” Bociurkiw said in the interview.

Parry had said that Bociurkiw’s testimony is “as close to virgin, untouched evidence and testimony as we’ll ever get. Unlike a black-box interpretation-analysis long afterward by the Russian, British or Ukrainian governments, each of which has a horse in this race, this testimony from Bociurkiw is raw, independent and comes from one of the two earliest witnesses to the physical evidence.

“That’s powerfully authoritative testimony. Bociurkiw arrived there fast because he negotiated with the locals for the rest of the OSCE team, who were organizing to come later,” Parry had said.

Retired Lufthansa pilot Peter Haisenko had also weighed in on the new shootdown theory with Parry and pointed to the entry and exit holes centered around the cockpit.

“You can see the entry and exit holes. The edge of a portion of the holes is bent inwards. These are the smaller holes, round and clean, showing the entry points most likely that of a 30mm caliber projectile.

“The edge of the other, the larger and slightly frayed exit holes, show shreds of metal pointing produced by the same caliber projectiles. Moreover, it is evident that these exit holes of the outer layer of the double aluminum reinforced structure are shredded or bent — outwardly.”

He deduced that in order to have some of those holes fraying inwardly, and the others fraying outwardly, there had to have been a second fighter firing into the cockpit from the airliner’s starboard side. This is critical, as no surface-fired missile (or shrapnel) hitting the airliner could possibly punch holes into the cockpit from both sides of the plane.

“It had to have been a hail of bullets from both sides that brought the plane down. This is Haisenko’s main discovery. You can’t have projectiles going in both directions — into the left-hand-side fuselage panel from both its left and right sides — unless they are coming at the panel from different directions.

“Nobody before Haisenko had noticed that the projectiles had ripped through that panel from both its left side and its right side. This is what rules out any ground-fired missile,” Parry had said.

GJH/HRJ
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/08/07/374410/fighter-jet-shot-down-mh17-us-experts/
作者: 飞鱼IT    时间: 2014-8-9 07:09
本帖最后由 飞鱼IT 于 2014-8-9 08:31 编辑

乌克兰太对不起美国了,击落了飞机栽赃乌克兰亲俄武装, 但是,没有本事抢到黑匣子,最后被解密.

从MH17被击落开始就大造舆论,然后西方没等结论出来就制裁俄罗斯.
很明显, 就是为了制裁俄罗斯制造了此次事件.

哪个国家是世界上最大的恐怖组织.明眼人一看便知. 还有个被诅咒最贪婪的邪恶民族，几千年来一直被到处驱逐，这个国家最终会被这个民族带向没落甚至毁灭。
作者: 飞鱼IT    时间: 2014-8-9 07:18
三个黑匣子, 乌克兰民间武装抢到2个,最后一个可能被乌克兰军方抢到销毁.
乌克兰总理因为此次办事不力,自动辞职.
作者: 稀泥派 老刘    时间: 2014-8-9 10:10
乌克兰民间武装能把万尺高空飞机打下来，原来就没有人信，在乌克兰境内俄罗斯怎么可能打飞机？？没有理由也没有必要。想想都知道。谁干的。诚惶诚恐的乌克兰的军队误判为俄罗斯运输机。最有可能。美国的狂傲。势必促使中，俄联合对抗西方。
作者: 淘声依旧    时间: 2014-8-9 10:20
乌克兰呀乌克兰, 你让奥巴马还怎么有脸出门! 比小布什还丢人. 小布什造假说萨达姆有大规模杀伤性武器. 奥巴马和乌克兰更黑, 自己打下客机还栽赃俄罗斯, 这传出去........还是欧洲国家比奥巴马老道, 不冲在前面丢脸.
作者: superca    时间: 2014-8-9 10:24
真狠啊！
作者: 费老    时间: 2014-8-9 10:31
乌克兰民间武装能把万尺高空飞机打下来，原来就没有人信，在乌克兰境内俄罗斯怎么可能打飞机？？没有理由也没有必要。想想都知道。谁干的。诚惶诚恐的乌克兰的军队误判为俄罗斯运输机。最有可能。美国的狂傲。势必促使中，俄联合对抗西方。
稀泥派 老刘 发表于 2014-8-9 11:10 http://bbs.51.ca/images/common/back.gif
这你都相信啊？加农炮怎么摧毁飞机呢？在空难发生后的几十天里，亲俄武装和当地的居民从来都没有声称有炮弹落到飞机坠毁现场，再说，加农炮落下的地方必然有巨大的弹坑，谁发现了？？我觉得，若想知道到底是谁击落的这架客机，还是等等国际组织调查的结论吧！
作者: weinberger    时间: 2014-8-9 10:38
本帖最后由 weinberger 于 2014-8-9 11:41 编辑

Ria novosti 是俄罗斯的宣传工具。报道没有可信度。飞机被打下当天，该媒体就说是乌克兰误认其为普京专机发导弹击落的，看看没人信现在又改口了。
作者: 满 江 红    时间: 2014-8-9 10:43
楼上是故意搞笑吧，文中说的是飞机航炮，不是地上那种加农炮。
作者: 好兴致    时间: 2014-8-9 10:49
乌克兰太对不起美国了,击落了飞机栽赃乌克兰亲俄武装, 但是,没有本事抢到黑匣子,最后被解密.

从MH17被击落开始就大造舆论,然后西方没等结论出来就制裁俄罗斯.
很明显, 就是为了制裁俄罗斯制造了此次事件.

哪个国家是世界上最大的恐怖组织.明眼人一看便知. 还有个被诅咒最贪婪的邪恶民族，几千年来一直被到处驱逐，这个国家最终会被这个民族带向没落甚至毁灭。
飞鱼IT 发表于 2014-8-9 08:09 http://bbs.51.ca/images/common/back.gif



    保守党党魁哈珀怎么办？
作者: 好兴致    时间: 2014-8-9 10:51
且看加拿大那个牛仔总理这回怎么说，等待中:thinking:
作者: 稀泥派 老刘    时间: 2014-8-9 11:26
可能又是一笔无结果的冤孽。。。。可惜那无辜几百人啊，，，，全是精英。信什么有用啊？？  除了痛哭还是痛哭，，，超人在哪》？？神仙在哪？？？
作者: 满 江 红    时间: 2014-8-9 11:42
且看加拿大那个牛仔总理这回怎么说，等待中
三达 发表于 2014-8-9 11:51 http://bbs.51.ca/images/common/back.gif



   哈怕: 且看我黑老大总统这回怎么说，等待中
作者: 飞鱼IT    时间: 2014-8-9 12:11
这你都相信啊？加农炮怎么摧毁飞机呢？在空难发生后的几十天里，亲俄武装和当地的居民从来都没有声称有炮弹落到飞机坠毁现场，再说，加农炮落下的地方必然有巨大的弹坑，谁发现了？？我觉得，若想知道到底是谁击落的这架客机，还是等等国际组织调查的结论吧！
费老 发表于 2014-8-9 11:31 http://bbs.51.ca/images/common/back.gif


MH17一处飞机碎片显示其遭到30mm加农炮的袭击.

Img403269986.jpg (44.13 KB, 下载次数: 96)

MH17 飞机残片

MH17 飞机残片
作者: 克虏伯大炮    时间: 2014-8-9 12:30
老实说，看到这种消息，一笑而过。
有些人的心理真的很病态。全世界有10000家报纸，一个神马马来西亚的《海峡时报》就被当成了权威圭臬。

有些人想护俄反美是想疯了
作者: 飞鱼IT    时间: 2014-8-9 12:44
做人一定要有正义之心。
我痛恨对普通贫民下手的人。
马来西亚是受害国，也是参与事件调查的国家之一，我宁愿相信马来西亚。而不是那些被某些邪恶种族控制的媒体的声音。
作者: 共产党    时间: 2014-8-9 14:56
US analysts conclude MH17 downed by aircraft
An armed Ukrainian stands on part of the wreckage of the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 plane after it crashed near the settlement of Grabovo in the Donetsk region, July 17, 2014.
An armed Ukrainian stands on part of the wreckage of the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 plane after it crashed near the settlement of Grabovo in the Donetsk region, July 17, 2014.
Thu Aug 7, 2014 2:45PM
Haris Hussain, New Straits Times Online
Related Interviews:
'Satellite data on MH17 must be released'
Related Viewpoints:
Who is blocking MH17 probe? Why?
Intelligence analysts in the United States had already concluded that Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was shot down by an air-to-air missile and that the Ukrainian government had something to do with it.

This corroborates an emerging theory postulated by local investigators that the Boeing 777-200 was crippled by an air-to-air missile and finished off with cannon fire from a fighter that had been shadowing it as it plummeted to earth.

In a damning report dated Aug 3, headlined “Flight 17 Shoot-Down Scenario Shifts”, Associated Press reporter Robert Parry said, “some US intelligence sources had concluded that the rebels and Russia were likely not at fault and that it appears Ukrainian government forces were to blame.”

This new revelation was posted on GlobalResearch, an independent research and media organization.

In a statement released by the Ukrainian embassy on Tuesday, Kiev denied that its fighters were airborne during the time MH17 was shot down. This follows a statement released by the Russian Defense Ministry that its air traffic control had detected Ukrainian Air Force activity in the area on the same day.

They also denied all allegations made by the Russian government and said the country’s core interest was in ensuring an immediate, comprehensive, transparent and unbiased international investigation into the tragedy by establishing a state commission comprising experts from the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) and Eurocontrol.

“We have evidence that the plane was downed by Russian-backed terrorist with a BUK-M1 SAM system (North Atlantic Treaty Organization reporting name SA-11) which, together with the crew, had been supplied from Russia. This was all confirmed by our intelligence, intercepted telephone conversations of the terrorists and satellite pictures.

“At the same time, the Ukrainian Armed Forces have never used any anti-aircraft missiles since the anti-terrorist operations started in early April,” the statement read.

Yesterday, the New Straits Times quoted experts who had said that photographs of the blast fragmentation patterns on the fuselage of the airliner showed two distinct shapes — the shredding pattern associated with a warhead packed with “flechettes”, and the more uniform, round-type penetration holes consistent with that of cannon rounds.

Parry’s conclusion also stemmed from the fact that despite assertions from the Obama administration, there has not been a shred of tangible evidence to support the conclusion that Russia supplied the rebels with the BUK-M1 anti-aircraft missile system that would be needed to hit a civilian jetliner flying at 33,000 feet.

Parry also cited a July 29 Canadian Broadcasting Corporation interview with Michael Bociurkiw, one of the first Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) investigators to arrive at the scene of the disaster, near Donetsk.

Bociurkiw is a Ukrainian-Canadian monitor with OSCE who, along with another colleague, were the first international monitors to reach the wreckage after flight MH17 was brought down over eastern Ukraine.

In the CBC interview, the reporter in the video preceded it with: “The wreckage was still smoldering when a small team from the OSCE got there. No other officials arrived for days.”

“There have been two or three pieces of fuselage that have been really pockmarked with what almost looks like machinegun fire; very, very strong machinegun fire,” Bociurkiw said in the interview.

Parry had said that Bociurkiw’s testimony is “as close to virgin, untouched evidence and testimony as we’ll ever get. Unlike a black-box interpretation-analysis long afterward by the Russian, British or Ukrainian governments, each of which has a horse in this race, this testimony from Bociurkiw is raw, independent and comes from one of the two earliest witnesses to the physical evidence.

“That’s powerfully authoritative testimony. Bociurkiw arrived there fast because he negotiated with the locals for the rest of the OSCE team, who were organizing to come later,” Parry had said.

Retired Lufthansa pilot Peter Haisenko had also weighed in on the new shootdown theory with Parry and pointed to the entry and exit holes centered around the cockpit.

“You can see the entry and exit holes. The edge of a portion of the holes is bent inwards. These are the smaller holes, round and clean, showing the entry points most likely that of a 30mm caliber projectile.

“The edge of the other, the larger and slightly frayed exit holes, show shreds of metal pointing produced by the same caliber projectiles. Moreover, it is evident that these exit holes of the outer layer of the double aluminum reinforced structure are shredded or bent — outwardly.”

He deduced that in order to have some of those holes fraying inwardly, and the others fraying outwardly, there had to have been a second fighter firing into the cockpit from the airliner’s starboard side. This is critical, as no surface-fired missile (or shrapnel) hitting the airliner could possibly punch holes into the cockpit from both sides of the plane.

“It had to have been a hail of bullets from both sides that brought the plane down. This is Haisenko’s main discovery. You can’t have projectiles going in both directions — into the left-hand-side fuselage panel from both its left and right sides — unless they are coming at the panel from different directions.

“Nobody before Haisenko had noticed that the projectiles had ripped through that panel from both its left side and its right side. This is what rules out any ground-fired missile,” Parry had said.

GJH/HRJ
飞鱼IT 发表于 2014-8-9 07:38 http://bbs.51.ca/images/common/back.gif


press tv是伊朗国家电视台
作者: C罗    时间: 2014-8-9 18:01
老实说，看到这种消息，一笑而过。
有些人的心理真的很病态。全世界有10000家报纸，一个神马马来西亚的《海峡时报》就被当成了权威圭臬。

有些人想护俄反美是想疯了
克虏伯大炮 发表于 2014-8-9 13:30 http://bbs.51.ca/images/common/back.gif

磕巴大疱心理真的很病态， 你一个轮子邪教徒是护美反俄想疯了， 最主要是你一天到晚疯疯癫癫地眷恋你的共爹到了痴呆的地步， 明显是疯了
，
作者: 共产党    时间: 2014-8-9 22:27
如果是美国人的出的结论，最初始的报道应当出自美国权威媒体，这该是常识吧？
作者: 飞鱼IT    时间: 2014-8-9 22:54
如果是美国人的出的结论，最初始的报道应当出自美国权威媒体，这该是常识吧？
酒中仙 发表于 2014-8-9 23:27 http://bbs.51.ca/images/common/back.gif



老酒：    你说说看，马航MH17谁打下来的？

1、能解释马航MH17为什么偏离正常航线？
2、能解释乌克兰公布录音文件日期是7月16日，被击落是7月17日？
3、能解释为什么乌克兰战机曾经尾随MH17直至被击落？
4、美国当时有颗侦查卫星路过，为什么美国不公布图片资料？
5、乌克兰总统为什么辞职？

MH17先被导弹弹片击破，失去压力引起爆炸，后被30MM加农炮彻底击毁（飞机残片显示飞机遭到2种炮弹打击）

要是美国真能用大报率先公布事实真相，说明美国还有正义之人。
作者: 打一地名    时间: 2014-8-11 15:06
下周一 MH１７坠机事件荷兰调查组将宣布是谁用什么击落了 MH１７。
作者: 共产党    时间: 2014-8-11 16:00
老酒：    你说说看，马航MH17谁打下来的？

1、能解释马航MH17为什么偏离正常航线？
2、能解释乌克兰公布录音文件日期是7月16日，被击落是7月17日？
3、能解释为什么乌克兰战机曾经尾随MH17直至被击落？
4、美国当时有颗侦查卫星路过，为什么美国不公布图片资料？
5、乌克兰总统为什么辞职？

MH17先被导弹弹片击破，失去压力引起爆炸，后被30MM加农炮彻底击毁（飞机残片显示飞机遭到2种炮弹打击）

要是美国真能用大报率先公布事实真相，说明美国还有正义之人。
飞鱼IT 发表于 2014-8-9 23:54 http://bbs.51.ca/images/common/back.gif


所列出的这些不是疑问就是假说，都还不是结论。需要等待调查结果，也可能永远没有结果。
但是我不相信乌克兰政府会干这种事。因为乌克兰政府现在困难重重，面临被俄罗斯肢解，需要国际社会的同情支持，他们为什麽会做这种犯众怒的事？但是猜测推理并不是结论，要等结论。
作者: Orientspear    时间: 2014-8-11 16:09
所列出的这些不是疑问就是假说，都还不是结论。需要等待调查结果，也可能永远没有结果。
但是我不相信乌克兰政府会干这种事。因为乌克兰政府现在困难重重，面临被俄罗斯肢解，需要国际社会的同情支持，他们为什麽会做这种犯众怒的事？但是猜测推理并不是结论，要等结论。
酒中仙 发表于 2014-8-11 17:00 http://bbs.51.ca/images/common/back.gif

好一朵橙色的乌克兰茉莉花。。。。。。
作者: 慧眼识妖孽    时间: 2014-8-11 18:22
所列出的这些不是疑问就是假说，都还不是结论。需要等待调查结果，也可能永远没有结果。
但是我不相信乌克兰政府会干这种事。因为乌克兰政府现在困难重重，面临被俄罗斯肢解，需要国际社会的同情支持，他们为什麽会做这种犯众怒的事？但是猜测推理并不是结论，要等结论。
酒中仙 发表于 2014-8-11 17:00 http://bbs.51.ca/images/common/back.gif



  飞机刚被打下来的时候西方媒体可是迫不及待地把罪名加在大毛和狗腿子头上了，狗粮们也摇旗呐喊支持，那个时候为什么不能等调查的结果哪？谁先抢占“道德制高点”谁就有理？！
作者: 飞鱼IT    时间: 2014-8-12 07:03
本帖最后由 飞鱼IT 于 2014-8-12 08:29 编辑
所列出的这些不是疑问就是假说，都还不是结论。需要等待调查结果，也可能永远没有结果。
但是我不相信乌克兰政府会干这种事。因为乌克兰政府现在困难重重，面临被俄罗斯肢解，需要国际社会的同情支持，他们为什麽会做这种犯众怒的事？但是猜测推理并不是结论，要等结论。
酒中仙 发表于 2014-8-11 17:00 http://bbs.51.ca/images/common/back.gif



    我认为乌克兰为了脱离当时的困境（乌克兰政府军当时几乎面临被全歼），为了得到更多的支持，企图栽赃乌克兰民间武装，
精心设计了这次事件：
1、乌克兰政府不配合此次调查。荷兰人对乌克兰特别不满意（英国报道）。乌克兰在没有结论之前就对媒体宣布是乌克兰民间武装误击落马航客机。
2、让飞机偏离航线。
3、战斗机尾随马航MH17，挟持飞机偏离航线，到达战区上空，造成被乌克兰民间（背后俄罗斯）武装击落的假象。（导致俄罗斯被制裁）
4、及时播放录音和BUK导弹车视频
5、西方在没有结论之前就开始谴责和制裁俄罗斯。
6、未提供第三个黑匣子
7、荷兰在等美国卫星资料进行进一步证实。美国到目前为止尚未提供资料。
8、马航此次对乌克兰也相当不满意，说只能通过自己的方法要回到2个来自民间武装的黑匣子。
9、客机遭受了2种武器的袭击。
10、挑了个小国客机下手。（如果这次掉下的是美国客机，我的分析一定不一样，美国卫星资料也会立刻公布）
作者: 打一地名    时间: 2014-8-12 11:19
RAJ says: August 5, 2014 at 12:57 pm

Please see http://www.malaysiakini.com/news/270700 “A lorry owner claimed that his white Volvo heavy vehicle was used by Russian separatists to smuggle the alleged BUK missile that shot down Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 into Ukraine.
The owner identified by Lithuanian website alfa.it as Vasilijus, has said the video taken by Ukrainian intelligence officials show pro-Russian militants used his lorry to transport the BUK missile.
“Yes, this is my vehicle. It is easy to recognise. We know our vehicles. Yes it is ours,” Vasilijus confirmed with the Lithuanian website as reported by Australiannews.com.au.
“It is the only Volvo with such a cabin,” he added.
Vasilijus claimed that his base in Donetsk was taken over on July 8 – nine days before the gunning down of the jetliner, and the lorry was used to transport the missile that was parked there.
The Ukrainian intelligence video showed a convoy transporting the missile launcher across Donetsk, and this is seen as evidence of it being used by Russian separatists who allegedly shot down the MH17 Boeing 777 aircraft that killed 298 passengers and flight crew on board.
The footage showed the vehicle heading towards Russia.
Vasilijus confirmed that his base is still in rebel hands and he is expected to be a key witness in the investigation in identifying who was responsible in the downing of the airliner.”
作者: 打一地名    时间: 2014-8-12 11:29
TheSysX says: August 6, 2014 at 5:48 am

Again another *** story and easy to refute.
1) Operational (service) ceiling of the US-25 is 7.000m (MH17 was flying at 10.000) which would make a bit hard to successfully target and hit a fast (900km/h vs ) moving plane with a board cannon.
2) Effective Air-to-Air range of the Su-25 (GSch-302 /AO-17A) cannon is between 500m-800m, while its Air-to-Ground range is between 1.200m-1.800m (which it is its intended use as Ground support fighter)
3) Compare the damage done (much larger and uniform shaped holes) to this (target practice) APC (armored vehicle) by a 30mm Air-to-Ground cannon [http://tinyurl.com/ly5mcmn] [http://tinyurl.com/olqzujx], to the irregular and sharp edged holes in the MH17 fuselage [http://tinyurl.com/luyk59k].
You may also read this Russian article quoting Vladimir Babak (chief designer of the SU-25 fighter plane), that in his opinion, it is very unlikely that a SU-25 could have shot down MH17.. (http://www.aex.ru/news/2014/7/28/122697/)
Russian fighter pilot doctrine (as All Ukraine are Russian trained) does NOT dictate a cross fire (2 pronged) attack on a single target in flight.It is not only very hard to time and execute (remember max firing distance of 30mm canon is 800m and all 3 planes would be flying around 900km/h) but it is also very very dangerous. One of the pilots may miss the MH17 and hit his wingman..
This is just a stupid theory.
作者: 共产党    时间: 2014-8-12 11:45
本帖最后由 酒中仙 于 2014-8-12 12:50 编辑

回复 26# 飞鱼IT

【林忌评论】假新闻的中港融合

8月9日香港电台发布了一单令人震惊的国际新闻，题目为「马媒引述美情报机构：客机或被乌政府击落」，内文说「美国情报部门已经得出结论，认为马航 MH17是被空对空导弹击落…是被乌克兰政府击落」;这新闻实在非常「爆炸性」，因为美国情报部门达成如此惊人的结论，竟不见于任何美国或英文的传媒，却先被「马媒引述」再成为香港电台的新闻，究竟为甚么?
真相就是，香港电台表面自称是引述马来西亚《新海峡时报》的报导，实际上却是抄中共的《环球时报》，把原文搬字过纸，当成是自己从马来西亚的报纸翻译成为中文。「美国情报部门得出结论」这十字，就是从环时原字抄录，香港电台甚至从环时所写的「美情报人士认定」标题，改为「马媒引述美情报机构」，以讹传讹不断「作大」，而事实上马来西亚那篇报导，所写的只有「一些美国情报来源」，而引述的作者是「一位美联社记者」 Robert Perry。
而这位 Robert Perry实际上早已于1987年，即27年前，已经离开了美联社，近年更被评长期亲俄国，宣扬俄国的观点;更甚者，此作者的原文只提及「一些美国的情报分析员」，既没有列出来源，当中更荒谬到犯上一些基本的错误──例如宣称MH17上有「子弹痕迹」，因此相信是乌克兰的战机及「空对空导弹」所造成云云。实际上，俄制的山毛榉「地对空导弹」会在目标的近处爆炸，再令碎片击中目标的机身，这早在事发后被一众军事评论谈及。10日，马来西亚的国防部长拿督斯里希山慕丁，回覆记者提问否认「空对空导弹」击落的说法，等同否定了上述报导的可能性。
香港电台的新闻犯了两个严重错误，第一是抄新闻，把环时报导搬字过纸当作自己的;第二是假扮引述马来西亚的报导，实际上却来自环时，因此犯上和环时一模一样的荒谬错误。这次事件证明了一点，香港、台湾以至海外的华文传媒，一直被中共以直接或间接的方式长期渗透，简单至抄文以及懒惰的恶习，已经成功帮中共把政府的洗脑宣传机器，把维稳工程由中国大陆成功扩展到全世界;透过这些假外电报导，篡改当中关键的字眼，甚至引述一些表面上是外媒，实际上是「假外媒」如中共在日本的《日本新闻网》，以及中共在法国的《欧洲时报》，令华文传媒的公信力，集体沦落到和中共的传媒一样，假新闻处处，不断帮中共洗脑。

这说明了为何由中国大陆到海外，都有这么多反日反美反欧等所谓「爱国人士」，这些人根本不知道，自己和北韩那些绝对资讯封锁者，只是五十步笑百步，只有程度上的差别，本质是一样的。情况就有如中国奶粉不可靠，以为买的是洋奶粉，实际上却仍然是中国生产或渗了毒的。想走出这个困局，实在难上加难。(自由亚洲电台粤语部评论)
作者: 5 past 6    时间: 2014-8-12 12:04
The matter of truth is the pro-russia separatists had swept the plane wreckage numerous times and blocked international investigators from entering the scene for weeks. It doesn't take an utter fool to suspect that the evidences indicating to the true version of airstrike have been either destroyed or altered to what they appear to be today.
作者: 飞鱼IT    时间: 2014-8-12 12:36
本帖最后由 飞鱼IT 于 2014-8-12 13:37 编辑

http://rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-plane-russia-ukraine/

Ukrainian Su-25 fighter detected in close approach to MH17 before crash - Moscow
Published time: July 21, 2014 12:59
Edited time: July 22, 2014 15:03
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The Russian military detected a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter jet gaining height towards the MH17 Boeing on the day of the catastrophe. Kiev must explain why the military jet was tracking the passenger airplane, the Russian Defense Ministry said.

Follow Malaysia Airlines MH17 plane crash in Ukraine LIVE UPDATES

“A Ukraine Air Force military jet was detected gaining height, it’s distance from the Malaysian Boeing was 3 to 5km,” said the head of the Main Operations Directorate of the HQ of Russia’s military forces, Lieutenant-General Andrey Kartopolov speaking at a media conference in Moscow on Monday.

“[We] would like to get an explanation as to why the military jet was flying along a civil aviation corridor at almost the same time and at the same level as a passenger plane,” he stated.

“The SU-25 fighter jet can gain an altitude of 10km, according to its specification,” he added. “It’s equipped with air-to-air R-60 missiles that can hit a target at a distance up to 12km, up to 5km for sure.”

The presence of the Ukrainian military jet can be confirmed by video shots made by the Rostov monitoring center, Kartopolov stated.

At the moment of the MH17 crash an American satellite was flying over the area of eastern Ukraine, according to Russia’s Defense Ministry. It urged the US to publish the space photos and data captured by it.
‘Ukrainian Buk missile system transported to militia-held area’

In addition, MH17 crashed within the operating zone of the Ukrainian army’s self-propelled, medium-range surface-to-air ‘Buk’ missile systems, the Russian general said.

“We have space images of certain places where the Ukraine’s air defense was located in the southeast of the country,” Kartapolov noted.

The first three shots that were shown by the general are dated July 14. The images show Buk missile launch systems in about 8km northwest of the city of Lugansk – a TELAR and two TELs, according to the military official.
Another image shows a radar station near Donetsk.

Radar stations of the air defense in Donetsk Region, 5km north of Donetsk city, on July 14, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry

Radar stations of the air defense in Donetsk Region, 5km north of Donetsk city, on July 14, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry

While the third picture shows the location of the air defense systems near Donetsk, he explained. In particular, one can clearly see a TELAR launcher and about 60 military and auxiliary vehicles, tents for vehicles and other structures, he elaborated.

Buk missile defense units in Donetsk Region, 5km north of Donetsk city, on July 14, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry

Buk missile defense units in Donetsk Region, 5km north of Donetsk city, on July 14, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry

“Images from this area were also made on July 17. One should notice that the missile launcher is absent [from the scene]. Image number five shows the Buk missile system in the morning of the same day in the area of settlement Zaroschinskoe – 50km south of Donetsk and 8km south of Shakhtyorsk," the Kartapolov said.

No Buk missile defense units in Donetsk Region, 5km north of Donetsk city, on July 17, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry

No Buk missile defense units in Donetsk Region, 5km north of Donetsk city, on July 17, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry

Buk missile defense units in Zaroschinskoe, 50km south of Donetsk city and 8km south of Shakhtyorsk, on July 17, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry

Buk missile defense units in Zaroschinskoe, 50km south of Donetsk city and 8km south of Shakhtyorsk, on July 17, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry

The question that has to be answered is why the missile system appeared near the area controlled by the local militia forces shortly before the catastrophe, he stated.

Images taken on July 18 show that the missile systems left the area of the MH17 crash, the military official said.

Kartapolov also pointed to the fact that on the day of the plane crash Ukraine’s military increased activity on the part of Ukraine’s Kupol-M1 9S18 radars, which are part of the Buk system.

"..there were 7 radars operating on July 15, 8 radars operating on July 16, and 9 radars operating on July 17 in the area. Then, starting with July 18, the intensity of radar activities radically decreased, and now there are no more than two or three radars operating a day. The reason behind this is yet to be found."

In response to Moscow’s evidence, Kiev said on Monday it had proof the missile that brought down a Malaysian airliner last week came from Russia.

"There is evidence that the missile which struck the plane was fired by terrorists, who received arms and specialists from the Russian Federation," spokesman for Ukraine's Security Council Andrey Lysenko told a news conference. "To disown this tragedy, [Russia] are drawing a lot of pictures and maps. We will explore any photos and other plans produced by the Russian side."

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko said on Monday that Kiev has “strong evidence” of the causes of the MH17 crash.

“We know exactly the place [the surface-to-air missile was] launched, we know exactly the place where it hit the civilian plane and the place where the plane crashed.”

Kiev is ready to hand the information to the international investigation commission, according to the presidential press-service.
作者: 飞鱼IT    时间: 2014-8-12 12:38
http://rt.com/usa/179284-ron-paul-mh17-ukraine/

Ron Paul: US 'likely hiding truth' on downed Malaysian Flight MH17
Published time: August 10, 2014 13:06
Edited time: August 11, 2014 11:49
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Ron Paul (AFP Photo / Brendan Smialowski)

Ron Paul (AFP Photo / Brendan Smialowski)
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Former Congressman Ron Paul said the US knows ‘more than it is telling’ about the Malaysian aircraft that crashed in eastern Ukraine last month, killing 298 people on board and seriously damaging US-Russian relations in the process.

In an effort to inject some balance of opinion, not to mention pure sanity, into the ongoing debate over what happened to Malaysian Flight MH17, Ron Paul is convinced the US government is withholding information on the catastrophe.

"The US government has grown strangely quiet on the accusation that it was Russia or her allies that brought down the Malaysian airliner with a Buk anti-aircraft missile," Paul said on his news website on Thursday.

Ron Paul to Obama: Let’s just leave Ukraine alone!

Paul’s comments are in sharp contrast to the echo chamber of one-sided opinion inside Western mainstream media, which has almost unanimously blamed anti-Kiev militia for bringing down the commercial airline. Incredibly, in many cases Washington had nothing to show as evidence to incriminate pro-Russian rebels aside from tenuous references to social media.

“We’ve seen that there were heavy weapons moved from Russia to Ukraine, that they have moved into the hands of separatist leaders,” said White House spokesman Josh Earnest. “And according to social media reports, those weapons include the SA-11 [Buk missile] system.”

In another instance, State Department spokeswoman Marie Harf told reporters “the Russians intend to deliver heavier and more powerful rocket launchers to the separatist forces in Ukraine, and have evidence that Russia is firing artillery from within Russia to attack Ukrainian military positions.” When veteran AP reporter Matthew Lee asked for proof, he was to be disappointed.

“I can’t get into the sources and methods behind it,” Harf responded. “I can’t tell you what the information is based on.” Lee said the allegations made by the State Department on Ukraine have fallen far short of “definitive proof.”

Just days after US intelligence officials admitted they had no conclusive evidence to prove Russia was behind the downing of the airliner, Kiev published satellite images as ‘proof’ it didn’t deploy anti-aircraft batteries around the MH17 crash site. However, these images have altered time-stamps and are from the days after the MH17 tragedy, the Russian Defense Ministry revealed, fully discrediting the Ukrainian claims.

In yet another inexplicable occurrence, Russian military detected a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter jet approaching the MH17 Boeing on the day of the catastrophe. No acceptable explanation has ever been given by Kiev as to why this fighter aircraft was so close to the doomed passenger jet moments before it was brought down.

“[We] would like to get an explanation as to why the military jet was flying along a civil aviation corridor at almost the same time and at the same level as a passenger plane,” Russian Lieutenant-General Andrey Kartopolov demanded days after the crash.

Paul has slammed the Obama administration, despite its arsenal of surveillance technologies at its disposal, for its failure to provide a single grain of evidence to solve the mystery of the Malaysian airliner.

"It’s hard to believe that the US, with all of its spy satellites available for monitoring everything in Ukraine, that precise proof of who did what and when is not available," the two-time presidential candidate said.

"Too bad we can’t count on our government to just tell us the truth and show us the evidence," Paul added. "I’m convinced that it knows a lot more than it’s telling us."

Although no sufficient evidence has been presented to prove that the anti-Kiev militia was responsible for the downing of the international flight, such an inconvenient oversight has not stopped the United States and Europe from slapping economic sanctions and travel bans against Russia.

Moscow hit back, saying it would place a ban on agricultural imports from the United States and the European Union. Russia’s tit-for-tat ban will certainly be felt, as food and agricultural imports from the US amounted to $1.3 billion last year, according to the US Department of Agriculture. In 2013, meanwhile, the EU’s agricultural exports to Russia totaled 11.8 billion euros ($15.8 billion).

After the crash, Ron Paul was one of a few voices calling for calm as US officials were pointing fingers without a shred of evidence to support their claims. Paul has not been afraid to say the painfully obvious things the US media, for any number of reasons, cannot find the courage to articulate.

“They will not report that the crisis in Ukraine started late last year, when EU and US-supported protesters plotted the overthrow of the elected Ukrainian president, Viktor Yanukovych,” Paul said. “Without US-sponsored ‘regime change,’ it is unlikely that hundreds would have been killed in the unrest that followed. Nor would the Malaysian Airlines crash have happened.”

Paul also found it outrageous that Western media, parroting the government line, has reported that the Malaysian flight must have been downed by “Russian-backed separatists,” because the BUK missile that reportedly brought down the aircraft was Russian made.

“They will not report that the Ukrainian government also uses the exact same Russian-made weapons,” he emphasized.
作者: 飞鱼IT    时间: 2014-8-12 12:48
回复 27# 打一地名

https://www.youtube.com/watch?fe ... d&v=MduT109qfP0

里面有数百条关于BUK车视频评论，各种意见，可以去看看。
作者: 飞鱼IT    时间: 2014-8-12 13:00
本帖最后由 飞鱼IT 于 2014-8-12 14:08 编辑

美国的侦查卫星若不公布图片资料，难以获得真相。
因为参加调查的是马航和荷兰，都是弱小国家，也许最后结论会被和谐。

个人认为，不管谁击落MH17，乌克兰官方至少要负95%的责任。
1、客机在乌克兰领空被击落。主人没有保护好客人。不安全就应该封锁通道。
2、乌克兰战机为什么尾随MH17？ 导致客机偏离航线到战区上空被击落。
战区什么事情都可发生。
3、乌克兰和乌克兰民间武装都有BUK导弹车在战区。
乌克兰BUK 导弹车有卫星图片证实。 MH17被击落后消失。（
http://rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-plane-russia-ukraine/）
作者: 打一地名    时间: 2014-8-12 13:39
回复

里面有数百条关于BUK车视频评论，各种意见，可以去看看。
飞鱼IT 发表于 2014-8-12 13:48 http://bbs.51.ca/images/common/back.gif


YOUTUBE上的录像据说是 MH１７被击落之前的。似乎车主已经找到了。
作者: 飞鱼IT    时间: 2014-8-14 06:22
据马拉西亚           《新海峡时报》报道：
Retired Lufthansa pilot Peter Haisenko deduced that in order to have some of those holes fraying inwardly, and the others fraying outwardly,
there had to have been a second fighter firing into the cockpit from the airliner’s starboard side.
This is critical, as no surface-fired missile (or shrapnel) hitting the airliner could possibly punch
holes into the cockpit from both sides of the plane.

“It had to have been a hail of bullets from both sides that brought the plane down. This is Haisenko’s
main discovery. You can’t have projectiles going in both directions — into the left-hand-side fuselage
panel from both its left and right sides — unless they are coming at the panel from different directions.

“Nobody before Haisenko had noticed that the projectiles had ripped through that panel from both its left side and its right side. This is what rules out any ground-fired missile,” Parry had said.

炮弹是从左右两个方向同时击穿客机。飞机残骸显示飞机遭受2种武器袭击。飞机2侧受到不同武器袭击。
这完全排除了客机是被地对空导弹击落的。
作者: 人生挺好    时间: 2014-8-14 11:02
为达到不可告人的目的而不择手段。 无疑马航MH17、911和伊拉克拥核等事件及其“主流”媒体报道都是一脉相承的
作者: 飞鱼IT    时间: 2014-8-14 12:27
本帖最后由 飞鱼IT 于 2014-8-14 13:29 编辑
为达到不可告人的目的而不择手段。 无疑马航MH17、911和伊拉克拥核等事件及其“主流”媒体报道都是一脉相承的
人生挺好 发表于 2014-8-14 12:02 http://bbs.51.ca/images/common/back.gif

不过我认为911是真的。 也许是弱国对强国一种策略，人体炸弹就是以色列在弱的时候使用的一种方法。
自从911后，美国经济一落千丈，没有那么傻的总统炸自己的世贸大厦栽赃。
另外，美国是强国，毁自己造舆论，代价太大，不合适。
911后美国就开始衰退了，本拉登打击美国的目的最后达到了。（本拉登是美国在阿富汗培养的对付前苏联的力量）
作者: 人生挺好    时间: 2014-8-14 13:26
...没有那么傻的总统炸自己的世贸大厦栽赃。...

飞鱼IT 发表于 2014-8-14 13:27 http://bbs.51.ca/images/common/back.gif


这种想法就是许多人没看通911事件的关键点之一。 他们没明白美国总统只是美国少数几个美国国际大财团的木偶人罢了，那些国际大财团人物的根源、本性、战略目标和惯用手法是什么，许多人都不了解



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